5 ms·

About Touch ID Security

41 points by interpol_p 13y ago

nonchalance 13y ago
"... security is only as secure as its weakest point ..." I wonder why the 4 digit password became so standardized if it is as insecure as people think it is.
- terabytest 13y ago
  I think the baseline thought behind putting it on the iPhone's lock screen is that nobody in their right mind would rely on it to secure top secret documents or the information from their bank account... or would they?
  - interpol_p 13y ago
    I actually secure my mobile banking access with a four digit pin. I make two or three transfers per day, and it would be a pain to have to enter a long and complicated password that often (especially while standing in line at a store). To actually transfer money out of any of my accounts to an unknown account requires two-factor authentication (and transfer to unknown accounts can't be done from a phone). I find the balance of convenience and security fairly good in this instance.
madeofpalk 13y ago
Apple also says internally, which I find mildly amusing: > Not everyone will be able to use the fingerprint scanner feature. Some people lack the impedance necessary to activate biometric devices. > Do not service or replace the device for issues with a specific finger(s). If the customer has an issue with certain fingers, explain that in some cases Touch ID may unable to match those fingers consistently. This is usually caused by the readability of that fingerprint, and the customer can either try enrolling the finger at a later time, or use a different finger for Touch ID. Source: http://i.imgur.com/ku1KOUK.png http://i.imgur.com/ku1KOUK.png
- aptwebapps 13y ago
  > > Not everyone will be able to use the fingerprint scanner feature. Some people lack the impedance necessary to activate biometric devices. That'll be a new disadvantaged minority. I think I can imagine a sci-fi short story around this now ...
huhtenberg 13y ago
> 0% of people found this helpful. Surprise.
gren 13y ago
" It isn't possible for your actual fingerprint image to be reverse-engineered from this mathematical representation." I'm not really convinced, nothing is absolutely impossible in computer science. At least, can't we bruteforce it? I'm curious to know if they are true saying there is no way to reverse-engineer it, Any paper on the subject?
- rimantas 13y ago
  OK, I'll give you a bcrypt hash generated from some sentence. Will you give me back my sentence? When?
  - UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
    No need to be snarky to them. You could have just explained the difficulty in it rather than phasing it like they're an idiot for not understanding the perceptual problem.
  - biot 13y ago
    With 1 in 50,000 odds of matching fingerprints, how about I supply you with a list of 50,000 sentences. You choose one at random, generate a bcrypt hash with the default work factor of 10, and I'll give you back your sentence within the day. Deal?
- interpol_p 13y ago
  My understanding of that sentence is that it is a lossy conversion. A one-way cryptographic hash. Though I wonder how they update it with failure attempts. (When a failed scan occurs, if the subsequent scan is successful then data is used from the failed scan to update the fingerprint data.)
  - gren 13y ago
    Ok, I get it! If I understand it correctly, if it's lossless, 2 different fingerprints could pass the test (collision)? So by a bruteforce technique, I could be able to generate a subset of all possible fingerprint (finite?). Tell me if I'm wrong, but maybe by "cross checking" with another data (e.g. another device with a second different conversion algorithm) I could finally find out what was your fingerprint! That's quite overkill though!
polarix 13y ago
Doesn't mention two-factor unlocking. Please let there be optional two-factor unlocking.
- aeontech 13y ago
  There isn't, unfortunately. I'm sure it's being considered though.
beatpanda 13y ago
Blah blah blah whatever. Apple has legal obligations to the NSA that they can't talk about in public. Anybody using the fingerprint unlock feature needs to understand that it is likely compromised by this.
- tjohns 13y ago
  If you live in California (and probably many other states) and have a drivers license, or if you've ever crossed a US border and aren't a US citizen, then the government already has your fingerprints. Frankly, if a government agent wants your fingerprints, there are much easier ways to do it than trying to get a backdoor placed in a TPM chip. Even _if_ it's something they can do, they sure as heck aren't going to use it routinely -- it would be visible in network traffic, would be sitting there in the source code for anybody to come and discover it with a decompiler, and would destroy Apple's reputation if it ever got out (and you can bet their lawyers would push back when their reputation's on the line).
  - code_duck 13y ago
    The goverment has my fingerprints because the FBI came to my pre-school when I was 5 and told us all we should give them our prints so we could be ID'd if we were kidnapped.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
anonymouz 13y ago
A couple of years back, the last time fingerprints and biometric authentication became popular (mostly for notebooks, I believe), CCC managed to beat a lot of fingerprint readers with essentially a bit of tape. Is there any evidence so far that these readers are better armed against the most trivial of attacks? Another problem with all kinds of biometric authentication is of course that you can't exactly change your fingerprint. So if your credentials ever become compromised you have a bit of a problem.
- interpol_p 13y ago
  There is only the claim that the Apple sensor reads a "sub-epidermal" layer of skin. We'll have to see if people manage to fool it with standard tricks in the coming days.
  - panic 13y ago
    Relatively low-quality gel casts don't seem to work: http://blog.fortinet.com/iPhone-5s--Basic-Fingerprint-Replication-Methods-Stymied-by-TouchID-Sensor/ http://blog.fortinet.com/iPhone-5s--Basic-Fingerprint-Replic...
- tombrossman 13y ago
  What I don't get is why people are comfortable using something that uniquely identifies themselves as a password, not a user ID. To me, this is backwards thinking. The fingerprint reader could still be useful, once scanned you may enter your password or passcode and unlock the device. Put differently, would you be comfortable leaving a copy of your passwords on everything you touch? If not, why not? I bought my first real 'desktop replacement' laptop years ago, a Thinkpad T61P. It cost a fortune but it blew every other laptop I used away, and had a fingerprint reader which I though was really cool. Then I saw the YouTube videos starting to surface with people using gummy bears to defeat them. I was disappointed, sure, but I just disabled the fingerprint scanner and enjoyed the rest of the functionality of the laptop. I think the sensible thing to do if you buy a new iPhone is to recognise Apple got it wrong with the fingerprint reader, and enjoy all the other cool features of your new phone. It isn't an 'all or nothing' proposition. I also think there is an opportunity for Apple to offer users the choice whether the fingerprint should be used as the username or password.
softbuilder 13y ago
"Touch ID does not store any images of your fingerprint. It stores only a mathematical representation of your fingerprint. It isn't possible for your actual fingerprint image to be reverse-engineered from this mathematical representation." This is a tad disingenuous. Fingerprint 101: Fingerprint databases don't search images of your fingerprints. They search mathematical representations of your fingerprints. To uniquely identify your fingerprint an image is scanned for unique features called "minutia points"[1]. The spacing and orientation of those points is what is stored and later searched for. Fingerprint matching isn't boolean. When you do a database search you get a list of high probability matches. There are no perfect matches, even between two different images of the exact same finger. Everything is based on probability. For law enforcement purposes, strong matches result in a technician reviewing actual images and making comparisons. For biometric security like this (which is not my area) I expect that there is a threshold percentage match that must be met. The reason this quote concerns me is that while the actual image can't be reproduced, the image isn't the part that matters! The "mathematical representation" is what counts. Whether or not that information is actually secure onboard the phone, I don't know. [0] I have worked with fingerprint processing systems. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprint_recognition#Minutia_features http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprint_recognition#Minutia...
- Axsuul 13y ago
  So it's essentially a md5 hash and the only way someone can determine what your actual fingerprint looks like is from a rainbow table of fingerprints.
  - jdiez17 13y ago
    Did you read the comment you just replied to? Do you understand how a hash function works? In particular, the avalanche effect[1] prevents MD5 (or any other cryptographic hash) from being useful in this scenario, since fingerprints are matched fuzzily. Hashing functions are only useful when the input data doesn't change. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche_effect
- jnardiello 13y ago
casca 13y ago
At this point in time, the 4-digit PIN on the IPhone is protection against someone casually looking at the phone when you've left it on your desk. It takes 10 minutes to remove the PIN lock and keep the data intact without using specialist tools. With specialist tools the data can just be read and the owner will never know as the PIN lock will stay on. Given that, the fingerprint reader will be an improvement for most people. It keeps the same level of security and makes people feel like they're in the future when they unlock their phones.
- devx 13y ago
  The problem with fingerprints is that you only have so many of them, and you really don't want them to get compromised, because you can't change them. If your main fingerprints get stolen, that pretty much means you'll never be able to use them in your lifetime, unless you risk having the "bad guys" using those fingerprints in your name. And that's besides the fact that the government could try to eventually collect all those fingerprints in some way.
  - casca 13y ago
    This is a different problem with fingerprints and biometrics in general. You leave them around wherever you go so they are easily collected by others for reuse. But to provide a very basic level of protection for unimportant data, they should be fine.
jnardiello 13y ago
"Touch ID does not store any images of your fingerprint. It stores only a mathematical representation of your fingerprint" Everybody questioning about wether they can or can't rebuild your finger print from the mathematical model. While this is relevant, it's just one of the many implications that implementing finger-print technology in mass-production products has. Apple here is saying that the "mathematical representation" of your finger-print IS stored. Where? Nobody knows. Locally? Cloud? Very likely they will abuse this, as they are abusing social data in general. I'll just leave it here: "So, we have your day-to-day activities and a solid face recognition mathemtical model thanks to facebook, all your phone data thanks to Apple and Google, now we will have your finger print as well" As far as i'm concerned, at the moment NSA reversing from the mathematical model to the actual finger-print image is quite irrelevant and the general sitution is becoming disturbing.
- interpol_p 13y ago
  > Apple here is saying that the "mathematical representation" of your finger-print IS stored. Where? Nobody knows. Locally? Cloud? Apple explicitly says that fingerprint data is not backed up to iCloud. The data is only stored in what they are calling "Secure Enclave" on the A7. From my understanding this is an area of the SoC that is out of reach to all processes and most of iOS itself. From the article: "The Secure Enclave is walled off from the rest of A7 and as well as the rest of iOS." I think all OS processes that wish to interact with the secure enclave must do so through a secure monitor. The idea is that the secure processes are completely isolated from anything untrusted.
  - jnardiello 13y ago
    Thanks for pointing this out. While this is safely storing models from third party apps, there's literally nothing assuring us that Apple or "Trusted parties" will not access the data.
    - interpol_p 13y ago
      Apple tend to be pretty pro-consumer when it comes to privacy. Apple is not interested in your fingerprint data, they are interested in your trust and convenience. Those two things are far more likely to get you to buy things.
legulere 13y ago
What I find interesting is that nobody criticizes the M7 motion coprocessor, but everybody criticizes the fingerprint sensor. It's now possible to log every movement you make and where you are 24/7. And here Apple offers a nice API for every app developer that is interested in your data.
- interpol_p 13y ago
  > log every movement you make and where you are 24/7 This is most definitely not the case. The GPS is not running 24/7, nor do apps have access to historical GPS data. The location API is still entirely opt-in at the time the app runs. The data you can query from the M7 is not very sensitive, and is geared towards fitness apps.[1] For example, you can query the number of steps taken in a given date range (for up to seven days). You can also query the motion type. This is no way relates to GPS or your actual, physical location in the world. [1] http://www.doubleencore.com/2013/09/core-motion-activity-tracking-in-ios-7/ http://www.doubleencore.com/2013/09/core-motion-activity-tra...
atrox 13y ago
Does anyone else see the fail here? Basically they state that Touch ID is more secure than using an passcode but then state that it falls back to passcode, in other words it actually reduces security by now giving you two ways of getting into the phone....
- giovannibajo1 13y ago
  They explicitly mention that the security is as hard as the weakest link and thus suggest to not use a simple passcode anymore but switch to a full password. As long as the password needs to be bruteforce with more than 50K attempts (really, any reasonable one), your weakest link is the touch sensor, which is still 5 times better than a 4-digit passcode used by only 50% of users.
- bapbap 13y ago
  I've turned off simple passcode and made my passcode much more complicated. Now I can use Touch ID the majority of the time and only have to input the more complicated passcode every now and then.
devx 13y ago
> You can also use Touch ID instead of entering your Apple ID password to purchase content from the iTunes Store, App Store, and iBooks Store. You will be asked to scan your fingerprint with each purchase. How does this work exactly, if the fingerprint-pass is only stored locally on your device? Is the fingerprint acting only as a "master password", which means you still have to set-up your password for iTunes first?, and then it just re-uses that iTunes password after you used the fingerprint-master password? Because otherwise I'd have to assume Apple stores your fingerprint on their servers, in order to match your account with your fingerprint-as-password.
- lambada 13y ago
  >Is the fingerprint acting only as a "master password", which means you still have to set-up your password for iTunes first?, and then it just re-uses that iTunes password after you used the fingerprint-master password? That's the right answer I believe.
theboywho 13y ago
Am I the only one to notice this? "...so it is rare that...two separate fingerprints are alike enough to register as a match for Touch ID. The probability of this happening is 1 in 50,000 for one enrolled finger. This is much better than the 1 in 10,000 odds of guessing a typical 4-digit passcode...the 1 in 50,000 probability means it requires trying up to 50,000 different fingerprints until potentially finding a random match. But Touch ID only allows five unsuccessful fingerprint match attempts before you must enter your passcode..." So Touch ID odds are 50,000 while passcode is only 10,000. But since you only have five attempts for Touch ID to switch back to passcode, The Touch ID security only adds 5 odds to the previous passcode system and we end up with 10,005 odds of some successfully breaking into your phone. A whole system to gain 5 odds of breaking into the phone. Brilliant.
- numbsafari 13y ago
  You missed the later part where they indicated that, because Touch ID means you don't have to enter a pass ode as often, you should use a complex alpha-numeric pass code instead. That should help increase those odds again.
- onedognight 13y ago
  How is it that banks, who arguably store more value, get away with 4 digit ATM codes? They do the same thing Apple does with Thouch ID. They lock you after a small numer of failed attempts falling back to a secondary form of authentication.
- code_duck 13y ago
  You have a certain number of tries with the passcode, too. You need to process that number in the same way. Also, the slick, futuristic appeal of fingerprint access goes a long way to achieve Apple's branding goals, which surely is just as important to selling iPhones as actual security.
onedognight 13y ago
Talking about the security of the processed Touch ID data storage is worthless without discussing the data path from the sensor to the data store. It sounds like the sensor provides more detail to the CPU than it ends up storing. i.e. the real data is likely available to anyone who hacks your phone.

41 points by interpol_p 13y ago

"... security is only as secure as its weakest point ..." I wonder why the 4 digit password became so standardized if it is as insecure as people think it is.

terabytest 13y ago
I think the baseline thought behind putting it on the iPhone's lock screen is that nobody in their right mind would rely on it to secure top secret documents or the information from their bank account... or would they?
- interpol_p 13y ago
  I actually secure my mobile banking access with a four digit pin. I make two or three transfers per day, and it would be a pain to have to enter a long and complicated password that often (especially while standing in line at a store). To actually transfer money out of any of my accounts to an unknown account requires two-factor authentication (and transfer to unknown accounts can't be done from a phone). I find the balance of convenience and security fairly good in this instance.

madeofpalk 13y ago

Apple also says internally, which I find mildly amusing: > Not everyone will be able to use the fingerprint scanner feature. Some people lack the impedance necessary to activate biometric devices. > Do not service or replace the device for issues with a specific finger(s). If the customer has an issue with certain fingers, explain that in some cases Touch ID may unable to match those fingers consistently. This is usually caused by the readability of that fingerprint, and the customer can either try enrolling the finger at a later time, or use a different finger for Touch ID. Source: http://i.imgur.com/ku1KOUK.png http://i.imgur.com/ku1KOUK.png

aptwebapps 13y ago
> > Not everyone will be able to use the fingerprint scanner feature. Some people lack the impedance necessary to activate biometric devices. That'll be a new disadvantaged minority. I think I can imagine a sci-fi short story around this now ...

huhtenberg 13y ago

> 0% of people found this helpful. Surprise.

gren 13y ago

" It isn't possible for your actual fingerprint image to be reverse-engineered from this mathematical representation." I'm not really convinced, nothing is absolutely impossible in computer science. At least, can't we bruteforce it? I'm curious to know if they are true saying there is no way to reverse-engineer it, Any paper on the subject?

rimantas 13y ago
OK, I'll give you a bcrypt hash generated from some sentence. Will you give me back my sentence? When?
- UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
  No need to be snarky to them. You could have just explained the difficulty in it rather than phasing it like they're an idiot for not understanding the perceptual problem.
- biot 13y ago
  With 1 in 50,000 odds of matching fingerprints, how about I supply you with a list of 50,000 sentences. You choose one at random, generate a bcrypt hash with the default work factor of 10, and I'll give you back your sentence within the day. Deal?
interpol_p 13y ago
My understanding of that sentence is that it is a lossy conversion. A one-way cryptographic hash. Though I wonder how they update it with failure attempts. (When a failed scan occurs, if the subsequent scan is successful then data is used from the failed scan to update the fingerprint data.)
- gren 13y ago
  Ok, I get it! If I understand it correctly, if it's lossless, 2 different fingerprints could pass the test (collision)? So by a bruteforce technique, I could be able to generate a subset of all possible fingerprint (finite?). Tell me if I'm wrong, but maybe by "cross checking" with another data (e.g. another device with a second different conversion algorithm) I could finally find out what was your fingerprint! That's quite overkill though!

polarix 13y ago

Doesn't mention two-factor unlocking. Please let there be optional two-factor unlocking.

aeontech 13y ago
There isn't, unfortunately. I'm sure it's being considered though.

beatpanda 13y ago

Blah blah blah whatever. Apple has legal obligations to the NSA that they can't talk about in public. Anybody using the fingerprint unlock feature needs to understand that it is likely compromised by this.

tjohns 13y ago
If you live in California (and probably many other states) and have a drivers license, or if you've ever crossed a US border and aren't a US citizen, then the government already has your fingerprints. Frankly, if a government agent wants your fingerprints, there are much easier ways to do it than trying to get a backdoor placed in a TPM chip. Even _if_ it's something they can do, they sure as heck aren't going to use it routinely -- it would be visible in network traffic, would be sitting there in the source code for anybody to come and discover it with a decompiler, and would destroy Apple's reputation if it ever got out (and you can bet their lawyers would push back when their reputation's on the line).
- code_duck 13y ago
  The goverment has my fingerprints because the FBI came to my pre-school when I was 5 and told us all we should give them our prints so we could be ID'd if we were kidnapped.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]

anonymouz 13y ago

A couple of years back, the last time fingerprints and biometric authentication became popular (mostly for notebooks, I believe), CCC managed to beat a lot of fingerprint readers with essentially a bit of tape. Is there any evidence so far that these readers are better armed against the most trivial of attacks? Another problem with all kinds of biometric authentication is of course that you can't exactly change your fingerprint. So if your credentials ever become compromised you have a bit of a problem.

interpol_p 13y ago
There is only the claim that the Apple sensor reads a "sub-epidermal" layer of skin. We'll have to see if people manage to fool it with standard tricks in the coming days.
- panic 13y ago
  Relatively low-quality gel casts don't seem to work: http://blog.fortinet.com/iPhone-5s--Basic-Fingerprint-Replication-Methods-Stymied-by-TouchID-Sensor/ http://blog.fortinet.com/iPhone-5s--Basic-Fingerprint-Replic...
tombrossman 13y ago
What I don't get is why people are comfortable using something that uniquely identifies themselves as a password, not a user ID. To me, this is backwards thinking. The fingerprint reader could still be useful, once scanned you may enter your password or passcode and unlock the device. Put differently, would you be comfortable leaving a copy of your passwords on everything you touch? If not, why not? I bought my first real 'desktop replacement' laptop years ago, a Thinkpad T61P. It cost a fortune but it blew every other laptop I used away, and had a fingerprint reader which I though was really cool. Then I saw the YouTube videos starting to surface with people using gummy bears to defeat them. I was disappointed, sure, but I just disabled the fingerprint scanner and enjoyed the rest of the functionality of the laptop. I think the sensible thing to do if you buy a new iPhone is to recognise Apple got it wrong with the fingerprint reader, and enjoy all the other cool features of your new phone. It isn't an 'all or nothing' proposition. I also think there is an opportunity for Apple to offer users the choice whether the fingerprint should be used as the username or password.

softbuilder 13y ago

"Touch ID does not store any images of your fingerprint. It stores only a mathematical representation of your fingerprint. It isn't possible for your actual fingerprint image to be reverse-engineered from this mathematical representation." This is a tad disingenuous. Fingerprint 101: Fingerprint databases don't search images of your fingerprints. They search mathematical representations of your fingerprints. To uniquely identify your fingerprint an image is scanned for unique features called "minutia points"[1]. The spacing and orientation of those points is what is stored and later searched for. Fingerprint matching isn't boolean. When you do a database search you get a list of high probability matches. There are no perfect matches, even between two different images of the exact same finger. Everything is based on probability. For law enforcement purposes, strong matches result in a technician reviewing actual images and making comparisons. For biometric security like this (which is not my area) I expect that there is a threshold percentage match that must be met. The reason this quote concerns me is that while the actual image can't be reproduced, the image isn't the part that matters! The "mathematical representation" is what counts. Whether or not that information is actually secure onboard the phone, I don't know. [0] I have worked with fingerprint processing systems. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprint_recognition#Minutia_features http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fingerprint_recognition#Minutia...

Axsuul 13y ago
So it's essentially a md5 hash and the only way someone can determine what your actual fingerprint looks like is from a rainbow table of fingerprints.
- jdiez17 13y ago
  Did you read the comment you just replied to? Do you understand how a hash function works? In particular, the avalanche effect[1] prevents MD5 (or any other cryptographic hash) from being useful in this scenario, since fingerprints are matched fuzzily. Hashing functions are only useful when the input data doesn't change. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche_effect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalanche_effect
jnardiello 13y ago

casca 13y ago

At this point in time, the 4-digit PIN on the IPhone is protection against someone casually looking at the phone when you've left it on your desk. It takes 10 minutes to remove the PIN lock and keep the data intact without using specialist tools. With specialist tools the data can just be read and the owner will never know as the PIN lock will stay on. Given that, the fingerprint reader will be an improvement for most people. It keeps the same level of security and makes people feel like they're in the future when they unlock their phones.

devx 13y ago
The problem with fingerprints is that you only have so many of them, and you really don't want them to get compromised, because you can't change them. If your main fingerprints get stolen, that pretty much means you'll never be able to use them in your lifetime, unless you risk having the "bad guys" using those fingerprints in your name. And that's besides the fact that the government could try to eventually collect all those fingerprints in some way.
- casca 13y ago
  This is a different problem with fingerprints and biometrics in general. You leave them around wherever you go so they are easily collected by others for reuse. But to provide a very basic level of protection for unimportant data, they should be fine.

jnardiello 13y ago

"Touch ID does not store any images of your fingerprint. It stores only a mathematical representation of your fingerprint" Everybody questioning about wether they can or can't rebuild your finger print from the mathematical model. While this is relevant, it's just one of the many implications that implementing finger-print technology in mass-production products has. Apple here is saying that the "mathematical representation" of your finger-print IS stored. Where? Nobody knows. Locally? Cloud? Very likely they will abuse this, as they are abusing social data in general. I'll just leave it here: "So, we have your day-to-day activities and a solid face recognition mathemtical model thanks to facebook, all your phone data thanks to Apple and Google, now we will have your finger print as well" As far as i'm concerned, at the moment NSA reversing from the mathematical model to the actual finger-print image is quite irrelevant and the general sitution is becoming disturbing.

interpol_p 13y ago
> Apple here is saying that the "mathematical representation" of your finger-print IS stored. Where? Nobody knows. Locally? Cloud? Apple explicitly says that fingerprint data is not backed up to iCloud. The data is only stored in what they are calling "Secure Enclave" on the A7. From my understanding this is an area of the SoC that is out of reach to all processes and most of iOS itself. From the article: "The Secure Enclave is walled off from the rest of A7 and as well as the rest of iOS." I think all OS processes that wish to interact with the secure enclave must do so through a secure monitor. The idea is that the secure processes are completely isolated from anything untrusted.
- jnardiello 13y ago
  Thanks for pointing this out. While this is safely storing models from third party apps, there's literally nothing assuring us that Apple or "Trusted parties" will not access the data.
  - interpol_p 13y ago
    Apple tend to be pretty pro-consumer when it comes to privacy. Apple is not interested in your fingerprint data, they are interested in your trust and convenience. Those two things are far more likely to get you to buy things.

legulere 13y ago

What I find interesting is that nobody criticizes the M7 motion coprocessor, but everybody criticizes the fingerprint sensor. It's now possible to log every movement you make and where you are 24/7. And here Apple offers a nice API for every app developer that is interested in your data.

interpol_p 13y ago
> log every movement you make and where you are 24/7 This is most definitely not the case. The GPS is not running 24/7, nor do apps have access to historical GPS data. The location API is still entirely opt-in at the time the app runs. The data you can query from the M7 is not very sensitive, and is geared towards fitness apps.[1] For example, you can query the number of steps taken in a given date range (for up to seven days). You can also query the motion type. This is no way relates to GPS or your actual, physical location in the world. [1] http://www.doubleencore.com/2013/09/core-motion-activity-tracking-in-ios-7/ http://www.doubleencore.com/2013/09/core-motion-activity-tra...

atrox 13y ago

Does anyone else see the fail here? Basically they state that Touch ID is more secure than using an passcode but then state that it falls back to passcode, in other words it actually reduces security by now giving you two ways of getting into the phone....

giovannibajo1 13y ago
They explicitly mention that the security is as hard as the weakest link and thus suggest to not use a simple passcode anymore but switch to a full password. As long as the password needs to be bruteforce with more than 50K attempts (really, any reasonable one), your weakest link is the touch sensor, which is still 5 times better than a 4-digit passcode used by only 50% of users.
bapbap 13y ago
I've turned off simple passcode and made my passcode much more complicated. Now I can use Touch ID the majority of the time and only have to input the more complicated passcode every now and then.

devx 13y ago

> You can also use Touch ID instead of entering your Apple ID password to purchase content from the iTunes Store, App Store, and iBooks Store. You will be asked to scan your fingerprint with each purchase. How does this work exactly, if the fingerprint-pass is only stored locally on your device? Is the fingerprint acting only as a "master password", which means you still have to set-up your password for iTunes first?, and then it just re-uses that iTunes password after you used the fingerprint-master password? Because otherwise I'd have to assume Apple stores your fingerprint on their servers, in order to match your account with your fingerprint-as-password.

lambada 13y ago
>Is the fingerprint acting only as a "master password", which means you still have to set-up your password for iTunes first?, and then it just re-uses that iTunes password after you used the fingerprint-master password? That's the right answer I believe.

theboywho 13y ago

Am I the only one to notice this? "...so it is rare that...two separate fingerprints are alike enough to register as a match for Touch ID. The probability of this happening is 1 in 50,000 for one enrolled finger. This is much better than the 1 in 10,000 odds of guessing a typical 4-digit passcode...the 1 in 50,000 probability means it requires trying up to 50,000 different fingerprints until potentially finding a random match. But Touch ID only allows five unsuccessful fingerprint match attempts before you must enter your passcode..." So Touch ID odds are 50,000 while passcode is only 10,000. But since you only have five attempts for Touch ID to switch back to passcode, The Touch ID security only adds 5 odds to the previous passcode system and we end up with 10,005 odds of some successfully breaking into your phone. A whole system to gain 5 odds of breaking into the phone. Brilliant.

numbsafari 13y ago
You missed the later part where they indicated that, because Touch ID means you don't have to enter a pass ode as often, you should use a complex alpha-numeric pass code instead. That should help increase those odds again.
onedognight 13y ago
How is it that banks, who arguably store more value, get away with 4 digit ATM codes? They do the same thing Apple does with Thouch ID. They lock you after a small numer of failed attempts falling back to a secondary form of authentication.
code_duck 13y ago
You have a certain number of tries with the passcode, too. You need to process that number in the same way. Also, the slick, futuristic appeal of fingerprint access goes a long way to achieve Apple's branding goals, which surely is just as important to selling iPhones as actual security.

onedognight 13y ago

Talking about the security of the processed Touch ID data storage is worthless without discussing the data path from the sensor to the data store. It sounds like the sensor provides more detail to the CPU than it ends up storing. i.e. the real data is likely available to anyone who hacks your phone.