7 ms·

> Really? Fucking hell.. With every month that goes by, I am less and less inclined to travel to, or do business in, the US.. The insinuation being that the US

by maratd 13y ago

> Really? Fucking hell.. With every month that goes by, I am less and less inclined to travel to, or do business in, the US.. The insinuation being that the US is the only country doing this? I hate this sort of thing as much as the next guy, but let's not pretend the US is the only country engaging in this behavior. We can certainly expect better, but don't blind yourself to the obvious. Based on recent events, maybe you shouldn't be traveling anywhere, period.

greenyoda 13y ago
Indeed. David Miranda was detained by British agents in London.
carlob 13y ago
Israel is pretty bad in this department as well. I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. In fact I don't plan to visit Israel any time soon. I believe this is the sentiment of grandparent commenter, the fact that there might be other places where something like this happens is no excuse for a beacon of democracy such as the US.
- maratd 13y ago
  > I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. I hear that visiting Arab countries with a Jewish last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Israel from an Arabian airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. Any particular reason you're picking on one and not the other? A bit hypocritical, don't you think? That was the point of my comment. Let's stop now, ok? We're all in the same boat.
  - umsm 13y ago
    I believe he was just giving an example. It didn't seem like he wanted to offend anyone.
  - Amadou 13y ago
    Israel, and the USA, make a big deal about being representative democracies and champions of human rights. Anytime their deeds don't match their words, criticism is warranted. The Saudis and other monarchy/dictatorships in the middle east don't make any such pretense.
    - Shivetya 13y ago
      at least Israel has the excuse of having enemies on its borders if not within. Not sure what my country's excuse is other than, we're too big to be failed.
  - carlob 13y ago
    First off both of what the sibling posters said is true. 1. Israel makes big claims of being an advanced democracy, unlike the Saudi monarchy 2. I wasn't singling Israel in particular. I wouldn't visit Saudi Arabia for the exact same reasons. But there is another point where your parallel breaks, there is no way to get to Palestine without going through Israel, so if you are a social worker involved with the welfare issues in West Bank or Gaza, or even a Christian pilgrim trying to go to Betlehem, you have no choice but to submit to the ordeal.
    - greenyoda 13y ago
      "there is no way to get to Palestine without going through Israel" Can't you get to the West Bank through Jordan and Gaza through Egypt?
      - azernik 13y ago
        The Egypt-Gaza crossing at Rafah is passable, though frequently closed (due to Egyptian restrictions). The Allenby/King Hussein Bridge from Jordan to the West Bank, on the other hand, is an Israeli-run border crossing, and it is definitely the least inviting crossing I've ever been through.
  - 616c 13y ago
    It is a violation of military law for Israeli citizens to enter the Palestinian Territories, full stop. That is why many never visit, as it means severe penalties without trial. As a foreigner who crossed in and out, it is still unpleasant, particularly with Palestinians with Jerusalem plates (those fortunate enough to have free passage). The kind of asshole-ish behavior rivals the TSA. If anything, that should make the TSA embarrassed.
  - beedogs 13y ago
    Are you just here to be an argumentative dick?
  - bostik 13y ago
    This isn't even a new development. Back in the 70's and 80's my father had two passports, issued precisely to prevent being constantly detained and/or harassed when traveling. His work took him to relatively long visits (anything up to 4 months, but usually just 2-3 weeks) to about half the countries in Arabian Peninsula and roughly 1/3 of the countries in Africa. (I've been told that I met the Namibian foreign minister when I was 3 and surprised him by apparently trying to sing their national anthem.) During that same time, my father also had to occasionally travel to US and, I believe, Israel. One of the passports was used when traveling in Arabic and (communist) African countries. The other was reserved for rest of the world. I've been later informed that this practice was not as uncommon as I would have believed. People working "in the field" for industries that were involved in development aid projects did sometimes have multiple passports, for the very reason of making their constant travels easier.
- bloodorange 13y ago
  "for a beacon of democracy such as the US." I don't think that holds any longer.
BoppreH 13y ago
This doesn't lessen the severity of the issue. And we can only avoid the ones we know about, so until further evidence appears the USA gets the spotlight.
sbarre 13y ago
I wasn't insinuating anything. I said nothing more, or less, than what I said. Any insinuation or implication otherwise is of your own making, and is quite disingenuous I would add. I live in Canada, so I'm on the border with the US, and while I have certainly travelled worldwide (including to some less than democratic countries), I have overwhelmingly travelled to the US, both for business and personal. And over the last while, I have become increasingly uncomfortable crossing the border into the US, as compared to how it used to be, based on hearing more and more stories of detention and unreasonable search (both in the media and personal accounts from people I know). I have personally experienced at the very least a new level of hostility and aggressive questioning on a few occasions that I had not experienced before. So certainly there are other countries where this type of treatment is possible at the border, but I am expressing dismay at the fact that the US is now "one of those" countries, when it didn't used to be. And yes, "unreasonable" is in the eye of the beholder, but they're my eyes thank you very much, so I may eventually just opt out of visiting the US for any reason.
- bobf 13y ago
  For a perspective from the other side of the border (I'm from the US): I've been to Canada a few times as a tourist and on business over the past decade, never staying more than a few days. Every time, without exception, I've been on the receiving end of "aggressive", extended questioning, ranging from such oddities as "You're here for our free health care, aren't you? Admit it! Just tell us you don't have insurance!" to lines of questioning that suggest involvement with a drug cartel. I've also been subjected to extensive physical searches of all my belongings. (And just to be clear, I'm a healthy, Caucasian, 20-something, US born-and-raised, male.) I often think of most Canadians as being friendlier than a lot of people around the US, but immigration and border control aren't one of those areas.
  - brightsize 13y ago
    I currently live in eastern Washington state. Up until around 2003, I lived in Seattle. In 2003 and in prior years, entering Canada was as smooth as could be. The people at the Canadian border checkpoints were friendly and asked minimal questions. I always found my re-entry back into the U.S. to be a more rude, though not particularly arduous an ordeal as going the other way. My most recent entry into .ca was quite the opposite. Bear in mind these are very rural crossing points, nothing like the I5 transit. The most recent Canadian agent was somewhat gruff and unpleasant, asking quite a few questions. Come to think of it, in a prior .ca entry, with a female friend from the UK, the Canadian agent seemed to be convinced that we were entering Canada for the purpose of getting married and asked us repeatedly whether we had such plans. After multiple denials, he went on to advise us not to do so anyway. What??? My crossings back into the U.S. from Canada very recently have been fairly painless compared to going the other way.
joering2 13y ago
> The insinuation being that the US is the only country doing this? Can you please make up your mind? Either Americans are "exceptional" and this is "the best country in the world", or not. If not then I don't think its okay to hate on others when they are upset with things happening on this soil. As we all know things in US go downhill since a while. This issue would not suprise in Russia in 80s or on Cuba, but if US is exceptional then it will be judged by exceptional rules. In this case it shows US fails miserably on "land of the free, home of the brave".
- rhizome 13y ago
  I have long speculated that the US chooses Cuba, NK, Russia, China, et al, as "enemies" purely out of jealousy.
- rayiner 13y ago
  I bet you'd call Zuck "exceptional" but I'd bet he's dead average athletically.
  - fsck--off 13y ago
    By "Zuck" do you mean Mark Zuckerberg? Mark Zuckerberg was the captain of the fencing team at Phillip Exeter, which requires much more than average athletic skills.
ThomPete 13y ago
Its not the only one but it shouldn't be one of those who do. Go to the scandinavian countries and experience how effective, friendly and welcoming airport terminals can be.
- lflux 13y ago
  The only thing welcoming of landing at Arlanda is that my 3G data starts working again, and I have access to Eduroam. Arriving from ex-Schengen, especially at the non F-pier gates (due to the small passport control where you have to go up 3 flights of stairs and then down), isn't very welcoming at all.
  - ThomPete 13y ago
    We are not talking inconvenience here. We are talking the process of getting into the country or through security.
United857 13y ago
Yes, and I think people forget this in singling out the US. Remember that the Five Eyes (US/UK/CA/AU/NZ) essentially operate as one security mechanism.
- jlgaddis 13y ago
  Since I first heard about FVEY, I have assumed that each of the member countries has total unrestricted access to 100% of the data that any of the other member countries have collected. The more that we find out, the more I believe that that is an accurate assumption.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    There's no way that the other 4 eyes have "100% unrestricted access to the data" of the big one...
    - g8oz 13y ago
      Thats true, only Israel has that, as per recent revelations.
      - einhverfr 13y ago
        Israel doesn't have unrestricted access. The access is contingent on Israel promising not to use it to spy on us ;-)
    - einhverfr 13y ago
      You are probably right. Given the MOU with Israel, there are restrictions certainly for other governments. Those restrictions include, presumably, that they agree that among eachother they promise not to read achothers' emails, and furthermore if they do this and use the information to spy on our government, they promise to do so discretely....
rhizome 13y ago
Based on recent events, maybe you shouldn't be traveling anywhere, period. So, one should give up their freedom of movement because "recent events" have caused institutions to implement policies to eliminate it? Also, "everybody's doing it" is a pretty distasteful rationale.
guard-of-terra 13y ago
It seems to me that US is one of a select few countries who actually employ a lot of people full-time parting travelers with their electronics and harassing them. A lot more countries reserve rights to do so; US actually do it on a grand scale. That makes all the difference.
monksy 13y ago
I'm not sure that this is really the case. I believe that it has gotten worse over the years, mostly due to politics and the fact that most people in the US do not have to deal with this. [We have a rather passport-holding-population]

by maratd 13y ago

greenyoda 13y ago

Indeed. David Miranda was detained by British agents in London.

carlob 13y ago

Israel is pretty bad in this department as well. I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. In fact I don't plan to visit Israel any time soon. I believe this is the sentiment of grandparent commenter, the fact that there might be other places where something like this happens is no excuse for a beacon of democracy such as the US.

maratd 13y ago
> I hear that visiting Israel with an Arabic last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Palestine from an Israeli airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. I hear that visiting Arab countries with a Jewish last name, or, god forbid, trying to go visit Israel from an Arabian airport will land you in all sorts of trouble. Any particular reason you're picking on one and not the other? A bit hypocritical, don't you think? That was the point of my comment. Let's stop now, ok? We're all in the same boat.
- umsm 13y ago
  I believe he was just giving an example. It didn't seem like he wanted to offend anyone.
- Amadou 13y ago
  Israel, and the USA, make a big deal about being representative democracies and champions of human rights. Anytime their deeds don't match their words, criticism is warranted. The Saudis and other monarchy/dictatorships in the middle east don't make any such pretense.
  - Shivetya 13y ago
    at least Israel has the excuse of having enemies on its borders if not within. Not sure what my country's excuse is other than, we're too big to be failed.
- carlob 13y ago
  First off both of what the sibling posters said is true. 1. Israel makes big claims of being an advanced democracy, unlike the Saudi monarchy 2. I wasn't singling Israel in particular. I wouldn't visit Saudi Arabia for the exact same reasons. But there is another point where your parallel breaks, there is no way to get to Palestine without going through Israel, so if you are a social worker involved with the welfare issues in West Bank or Gaza, or even a Christian pilgrim trying to go to Betlehem, you have no choice but to submit to the ordeal.
  - greenyoda 13y ago
    "there is no way to get to Palestine without going through Israel" Can't you get to the West Bank through Jordan and Gaza through Egypt?
    - azernik 13y ago
      The Egypt-Gaza crossing at Rafah is passable, though frequently closed (due to Egyptian restrictions). The Allenby/King Hussein Bridge from Jordan to the West Bank, on the other hand, is an Israeli-run border crossing, and it is definitely the least inviting crossing I've ever been through.
- 616c 13y ago
  It is a violation of military law for Israeli citizens to enter the Palestinian Territories, full stop. That is why many never visit, as it means severe penalties without trial. As a foreigner who crossed in and out, it is still unpleasant, particularly with Palestinians with Jerusalem plates (those fortunate enough to have free passage). The kind of asshole-ish behavior rivals the TSA. If anything, that should make the TSA embarrassed.
- beedogs 13y ago
  Are you just here to be an argumentative dick?
- bostik 13y ago
  This isn't even a new development. Back in the 70's and 80's my father had two passports, issued precisely to prevent being constantly detained and/or harassed when traveling. His work took him to relatively long visits (anything up to 4 months, but usually just 2-3 weeks) to about half the countries in Arabian Peninsula and roughly 1/3 of the countries in Africa. (I've been told that I met the Namibian foreign minister when I was 3 and surprised him by apparently trying to sing their national anthem.) During that same time, my father also had to occasionally travel to US and, I believe, Israel. One of the passports was used when traveling in Arabic and (communist) African countries. The other was reserved for rest of the world. I've been later informed that this practice was not as uncommon as I would have believed. People working "in the field" for industries that were involved in development aid projects did sometimes have multiple passports, for the very reason of making their constant travels easier.
bloodorange 13y ago
"for a beacon of democracy such as the US." I don't think that holds any longer.

BoppreH 13y ago

This doesn't lessen the severity of the issue. And we can only avoid the ones we know about, so until further evidence appears the USA gets the spotlight.

sbarre 13y ago

I wasn't insinuating anything. I said nothing more, or less, than what I said. Any insinuation or implication otherwise is of your own making, and is quite disingenuous I would add. I live in Canada, so I'm on the border with the US, and while I have certainly travelled worldwide (including to some less than democratic countries), I have overwhelmingly travelled to the US, both for business and personal. And over the last while, I have become increasingly uncomfortable crossing the border into the US, as compared to how it used to be, based on hearing more and more stories of detention and unreasonable search (both in the media and personal accounts from people I know). I have personally experienced at the very least a new level of hostility and aggressive questioning on a few occasions that I had not experienced before. So certainly there are other countries where this type of treatment is possible at the border, but I am expressing dismay at the fact that the US is now "one of those" countries, when it didn't used to be. And yes, "unreasonable" is in the eye of the beholder, but they're my eyes thank you very much, so I may eventually just opt out of visiting the US for any reason.

bobf 13y ago
For a perspective from the other side of the border (I'm from the US): I've been to Canada a few times as a tourist and on business over the past decade, never staying more than a few days. Every time, without exception, I've been on the receiving end of "aggressive", extended questioning, ranging from such oddities as "You're here for our free health care, aren't you? Admit it! Just tell us you don't have insurance!" to lines of questioning that suggest involvement with a drug cartel. I've also been subjected to extensive physical searches of all my belongings. (And just to be clear, I'm a healthy, Caucasian, 20-something, US born-and-raised, male.) I often think of most Canadians as being friendlier than a lot of people around the US, but immigration and border control aren't one of those areas.
- brightsize 13y ago
  I currently live in eastern Washington state. Up until around 2003, I lived in Seattle. In 2003 and in prior years, entering Canada was as smooth as could be. The people at the Canadian border checkpoints were friendly and asked minimal questions. I always found my re-entry back into the U.S. to be a more rude, though not particularly arduous an ordeal as going the other way. My most recent entry into .ca was quite the opposite. Bear in mind these are very rural crossing points, nothing like the I5 transit. The most recent Canadian agent was somewhat gruff and unpleasant, asking quite a few questions. Come to think of it, in a prior .ca entry, with a female friend from the UK, the Canadian agent seemed to be convinced that we were entering Canada for the purpose of getting married and asked us repeatedly whether we had such plans. After multiple denials, he went on to advise us not to do so anyway. What??? My crossings back into the U.S. from Canada very recently have been fairly painless compared to going the other way.

joering2 13y ago

> The insinuation being that the US is the only country doing this? Can you please make up your mind? Either Americans are "exceptional" and this is "the best country in the world", or not. If not then I don't think its okay to hate on others when they are upset with things happening on this soil. As we all know things in US go downhill since a while. This issue would not suprise in Russia in 80s or on Cuba, but if US is exceptional then it will be judged by exceptional rules. In this case it shows US fails miserably on "land of the free, home of the brave".

rhizome 13y ago
I have long speculated that the US chooses Cuba, NK, Russia, China, et al, as "enemies" purely out of jealousy.
rayiner 13y ago
I bet you'd call Zuck "exceptional" but I'd bet he's dead average athletically.
- fsck--off 13y ago
  By "Zuck" do you mean Mark Zuckerberg? Mark Zuckerberg was the captain of the fencing team at Phillip Exeter, which requires much more than average athletic skills.

ThomPete 13y ago

Its not the only one but it shouldn't be one of those who do. Go to the scandinavian countries and experience how effective, friendly and welcoming airport terminals can be.

lflux 13y ago
The only thing welcoming of landing at Arlanda is that my 3G data starts working again, and I have access to Eduroam. Arriving from ex-Schengen, especially at the non F-pier gates (due to the small passport control where you have to go up 3 flights of stairs and then down), isn't very welcoming at all.
- ThomPete 13y ago
  We are not talking inconvenience here. We are talking the process of getting into the country or through security.

United857 13y ago

Yes, and I think people forget this in singling out the US. Remember that the Five Eyes (US/UK/CA/AU/NZ) essentially operate as one security mechanism.

jlgaddis 13y ago
Since I first heard about FVEY, I have assumed that each of the member countries has total unrestricted access to 100% of the data that any of the other member countries have collected. The more that we find out, the more I believe that that is an accurate assumption.
- coldtea 13y ago
  There's no way that the other 4 eyes have "100% unrestricted access to the data" of the big one...
  - g8oz 13y ago
    Thats true, only Israel has that, as per recent revelations.
    - einhverfr 13y ago
      Israel doesn't have unrestricted access. The access is contingent on Israel promising not to use it to spy on us ;-)
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    You are probably right. Given the MOU with Israel, there are restrictions certainly for other governments. Those restrictions include, presumably, that they agree that among eachother they promise not to read achothers' emails, and furthermore if they do this and use the information to spy on our government, they promise to do so discretely....

rhizome 13y ago

Based on recent events, maybe you shouldn't be traveling anywhere, period. So, one should give up their freedom of movement because "recent events" have caused institutions to implement policies to eliminate it? Also, "everybody's doing it" is a pretty distasteful rationale.

guard-of-terra 13y ago

It seems to me that US is one of a select few countries who actually employ a lot of people full-time parting travelers with their electronics and harassing them. A lot more countries reserve rights to do so; US actually do it on a grand scale. That makes all the difference.

monksy 13y ago

I'm not sure that this is really the case. I believe that it has gotten worse over the years, mostly due to politics and the fact that most people in the US do not have to deal with this. [We have a rather passport-holding-population]