4 ms·

Sports are good, but I agree: get them the fuck out of academic institutions. They have no place there. The counter example is that sports are linked (hitstori

by 001sky 13y ago

Sports are good, but I agree: get them the fuck out of academic institutions. They have no place there. The counter example is that sports are linked (hitstorically) with (very) successful Academic Institutions. The notion that "they have no place there" is historically way off the mark. [Edit: Examples] [1] In 1815, Eton College documented its football [soccer] rules, the first football code to be written down anywhere in the world. [2] In 1845, the first football [Rugby?] laws were written by Rugby School pupils [3] Some historians have argued that the primary influence on Australian rules football was rugby football and other games originating in English public schools Springfield College [MA, USA] is ... famous as the site where the sport of basketball was invented: instructor and graduate student James Naismith invented the game in 1891 {etc} The real issue is their impact on high school culture. Again, this is at best culturally specific and self-referential. At best this is a political position: more time and attention should be allocated to {X} group not {Y} group. It also hinges on the false notion that (political) "merit" is correlated with "academic" merit. This is also a an obvious falsehood, and frankly the purpose of sport in schools is to teach the opposite. To use a stratup analogy: ideas are a dime a dozen. Its execution that counts. So, character is something that matters. And rightly or wrongly "character" and "teamwork" are subjects not developed/selected for in the classroom.

nitrogen 13y ago
High school sports only served to create social division, with sharply separated in-groups and out-groups. Some of the athletes were great people; many were arrogant jocks with an overwhelming sense of superiority and no trace of "character". Bad grades and even shoplifting were overlooked to preserve "the team."
- Zimahl 13y ago
  To be fair, this typically doesn't happen for the tennis players, track athletes, swimmers, etc. Most of the time the teams that are aggrandized, like for football, basketball, and sometimes baseball, are the ones what get the free pass.
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    True. When I was actually in high school I had a harder time realizing that, but I recognize that sports aren't inherently bad, it's the way some of the sports are elevated above all else.
enraged_camel 13y ago
>>The counter example is that sports are linked (hitstorically) with (very) successful Academic Institutions. The notion that "they have no place there" is historically way off the mark. That's not a counter-example because you have cause and effect backwards. It's not that sports make the academic institution successful. Rather, successful academic institutions a) receive a ton of funding and can allocate budget for sports and b) their popularity helps them attract talented athletes.
- 001sky 13y ago
  That's not a counter-example because you have cause and effect backwards Are you saying tha Soccer, Rugby, and Basketball invented Students? That seems rather unlikely.
mcguire 13y ago
"The counter example is that sports are linked (hitstorically) with (very) successful Academic Institutions." Some of them. Others, less so.[1] * Princeton University * Harvard University * Yale University * Columbia University * Stanford University * University of Chicago * Duke University * Massachusetts Institute of Technology * University of Pennsylvania * California Institute of Technology "And rightly or wrongly 'character' and 'teamwork' are subjects not developed/selected for in the classroom [but are on the sports field?]." Sometimes. Others, less so.[2] [1] http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/... [2] http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/off-field-arrests-for-violence-plague-pro-football?stay=1 http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/off-field-arrests-for-viol...
- jdminhbg 13y ago
  Yale won the NCAA hockey championship last year, Stanford has maybe the best overall athletic department in the country (including a current top-10 football program), and Duke is one of the five most successful basketball programs of all time.
- gtani 13y ago
  This provides some insight into what the elites that are in athletic conferences are doing recruiting and admissions-wise (and the U of Chicago, MIT and Caltech, I think they emphasize ultimate frisbee as highly as football!) http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/ivy-academic-index/?_r=0 http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/ivy-academic-i...
- 001sky 13y ago
  No offense to America, but the modern University predates the US founding in 1776 by some 500 years. Secondly, are you suggesting that there the set (clever, assholes) is a null set?
  - mcguire 13y ago
    I'm sorry. I was unaware that any universities (or any other educational institutions, for that matter) outside the United States were engaged in the kind of semi-professional sporting/entertainment industry that is common inside the United States. [Edit: Examples] * Between 2009 and 2012, the Allen, TX, Independent School District (which has one high-school) built a $60,000,000, 18,000 seat football stadium. "'It shows that the people of Allen support their kids,' said Allen head football coach Tom Westerberg." http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Allen-Unveils-New-Eagle-Stadium-164932936.html http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Allen-Unveils-New-Eagle-Sta... * The football program at The University of Texas at Austin made $103,813,684 in 2011-12. http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajessop/2013/08/31/the-economics-of-college-football-a-look-at-the-top-25-teams-revenues-and-expenses/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajessop/2013/08/31/the-econ...
JPKab 13y ago
Your causation is completely backwards. By your logic, since sports = great academics, University of Alabama is a vastly superior school to Harvard. You act as if the root of these schools success is sports, as if the sports did ANYTHING to make these schools more successful. They didn't.
- 001sky 13y ago
  The causation is that sports originated in "elite" schools with "elite" academics. Other schools imitated the elite schools, and introduced sports as a result. If the quality of schools associated with sports has declined, that is a function of this second-order process. It would be interesting if sports made the originating schools were performers academically, but that is not the case. The British Public schools that made sport central to their programs remained among the most elite academically for 150 years after there introduction. Sports are good, but I agree: get them the fuck out of academic institutions. They have no place there. To simplify this point, sports were created by students. That is the origin of their place in schools. These schools, were british colleges (ie, high schools), not universities. Your contention that they have "no place" in high school is historically mis-guided. The theory that sports are only identified with sub-par academic performance is also mis-guided. Sports originated in the highest-tier of Academic performance institutions. The reputations of those institutions onlly increased, as did those of their graduates, for a long time after the introduction of sports. Under your theory, their performance should have declined.

by 001sky 13y ago

nitrogen 13y ago

High school sports only served to create social division, with sharply separated in-groups and out-groups. Some of the athletes were great people; many were arrogant jocks with an overwhelming sense of superiority and no trace of "character". Bad grades and even shoplifting were overlooked to preserve "the team."

Zimahl 13y ago
To be fair, this typically doesn't happen for the tennis players, track athletes, swimmers, etc. Most of the time the teams that are aggrandized, like for football, basketball, and sometimes baseball, are the ones what get the free pass.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  True. When I was actually in high school I had a harder time realizing that, but I recognize that sports aren't inherently bad, it's the way some of the sports are elevated above all else.

enraged_camel 13y ago

>>The counter example is that sports are linked (hitstorically) with (very) successful Academic Institutions. The notion that "they have no place there" is historically way off the mark. That's not a counter-example because you have cause and effect backwards. It's not that sports make the academic institution successful. Rather, successful academic institutions a) receive a ton of funding and can allocate budget for sports and b) their popularity helps them attract talented athletes.

001sky 13y ago
That's not a counter-example because you have cause and effect backwards Are you saying tha Soccer, Rugby, and Basketball invented Students? That seems rather unlikely.

mcguire 13y ago

"The counter example is that sports are linked (hitstorically) with (very) successful Academic Institutions." Some of them. Others, less so.[1] * Princeton University * Harvard University * Yale University * Columbia University * Stanford University * University of Chicago * Duke University * Massachusetts Institute of Technology * University of Pennsylvania * California Institute of Technology "And rightly or wrongly 'character' and 'teamwork' are subjects not developed/selected for in the classroom [but are on the sports field?]." Sometimes. Others, less so.[2] [1] http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/... [2] http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/off-field-arrests-for-violence-plague-pro-football?stay=1 http://news.msn.com/crime-justice/off-field-arrests-for-viol...

jdminhbg 13y ago
Yale won the NCAA hockey championship last year, Stanford has maybe the best overall athletic department in the country (including a current top-10 football program), and Duke is one of the five most successful basketball programs of all time.
gtani 13y ago
This provides some insight into what the elites that are in athletic conferences are doing recruiting and admissions-wise (and the U of Chicago, MIT and Caltech, I think they emphasize ultimate frisbee as highly as football!) http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/ivy-academic-index/?_r=0 http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/10/ivy-academic-i...
001sky 13y ago
No offense to America, but the modern University predates the US founding in 1776 by some 500 years. Secondly, are you suggesting that there the set (clever, assholes) is a null set?
- mcguire 13y ago
  I'm sorry. I was unaware that any universities (or any other educational institutions, for that matter) outside the United States were engaged in the kind of semi-professional sporting/entertainment industry that is common inside the United States. [Edit: Examples] * Between 2009 and 2012, the Allen, TX, Independent School District (which has one high-school) built a $60,000,000, 18,000 seat football stadium. "'It shows that the people of Allen support their kids,' said Allen head football coach Tom Westerberg." http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Allen-Unveils-New-Eagle-Stadium-164932936.html http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Allen-Unveils-New-Eagle-Sta... * The football program at The University of Texas at Austin made $103,813,684 in 2011-12. http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajessop/2013/08/31/the-economics-of-college-football-a-look-at-the-top-25-teams-revenues-and-expenses/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/aliciajessop/2013/08/31/the-econ...

JPKab 13y ago

Your causation is completely backwards. By your logic, since sports = great academics, University of Alabama is a vastly superior school to Harvard. You act as if the root of these schools success is sports, as if the sports did ANYTHING to make these schools more successful. They didn't.

001sky 13y ago
The causation is that sports originated in "elite" schools with "elite" academics. Other schools imitated the elite schools, and introduced sports as a result. If the quality of schools associated with sports has declined, that is a function of this second-order process. It would be interesting if sports made the originating schools were performers academically, but that is not the case. The British Public schools that made sport central to their programs remained among the most elite academically for 150 years after there introduction. Sports are good, but I agree: get them the fuck out of academic institutions. They have no place there. To simplify this point, sports were created by students. That is the origin of their place in schools. These schools, were british colleges (ie, high schools), not universities. Your contention that they have "no place" in high school is historically mis-guided. The theory that sports are only identified with sub-par academic performance is also mis-guided. Sports originated in the highest-tier of Academic performance institutions. The reputations of those institutions onlly increased, as did those of their graduates, for a long time after the introduction of sports. Under your theory, their performance should have declined.