5 ms·

I think a lot people who are doing (successful) distributed web apps - are learning that performance actually does matter - and it can be painful to optimise po

by mtkd 13y ago

I think a lot people who are doing (successful) distributed web apps - are learning that performance actually does matter - and it can be painful to optimise poor architectural decisions. People who 5 years ago were sermonising to me on premature optimisation are now telling me they're rewriting something in a faster language or how many millisecs they've saved using some new profiling snake oil they've just bought. (whilst my background is in assembler/C, I now prefer to use prematurely optimised Ruby where possible just for the maintainability and the magic)

karterk 13y ago
But optimizing later can also be the smarter thing to do. Especially when you're in the early stages, you don't know what direction your product/company will take. Optimization is a happier problem to have than say, trying to find enough people to sustain your business.
Pxtl 13y ago
I think the lesson to learn is that you have to ensure you don't have barriers to optimization as well. Knuth's original statement on premature optimization presupposed that the cost of optimizing later isn't really that much higher than optimizing now. I mean, obviously it's going to be somewhat harder - code is harder to read than to write, and fixing a performance failure is going to take longer than getting it right the first time. But still, that's not a humongous cost and there are so very many opportunities for optimization that chasing them without performance data is a waste of time. But when you have an actual barrier to optimizing? Then you've got a real problem. If you're committed to a technology that has a hard performance ceiling and no easy way to break the slow parts out into another technology? That's a different problem. It seems evident that Knuth's advice about premature optimization can be indiscriminately applied when you're talking about code for an individual component... but should be considered carefully against the potential costs when thinking about large architecture.
- jfb 13y ago
  People who quote Knuth as aphorism are rarely as smart as Knuth. The optimization quote is great, but it's usually deployed as an appeal to authority to justify a preconceived, ideological decision -- God knows, I've done this. Building software is hard, and it's not at all surprising (or reprehensible) that people will seek out shortcuts to winnow their decision space.
  - dragonwriter 13y ago
    > The optimization quote is great, but it's usually deployed as an appeal to authority to justify a preconceived, ideological decision -- God knows, I've done this. Most people I've known have used it as shorthand for "decisions based on optimization concerns require some justification that the optimization is important to the specific application and warrants the cost that come with it"; it's not an appeal to authority (indeed, the authority behind it is almost never referenced, just the bare quote), and its usually, IME, a defense against a preconceived, ideological decision (it works poorly to justify a preconceived, ideological decision, because it doesn't have carry much weight if the person proposing the optimization has any basis for making the claim that the proposed optimization isn't premature; as it shouldn't.)
  - snowwrestler 13y ago
    I think the key to that quote is the agile mindset: the thing you think you're building might not be the thing that will actually meet the customer's need. So regular validation of a "good enough" product will be a better use of time than making the first prototype screamingly fast.

by mtkd 13y ago

karterk 13y ago

But optimizing later can also be the smarter thing to do. Especially when you're in the early stages, you don't know what direction your product/company will take. Optimization is a happier problem to have than say, trying to find enough people to sustain your business.

Pxtl 13y ago

I think the lesson to learn is that you have to ensure you don't have barriers to optimization as well. Knuth's original statement on premature optimization presupposed that the cost of optimizing later isn't really that much higher than optimizing now. I mean, obviously it's going to be somewhat harder - code is harder to read than to write, and fixing a performance failure is going to take longer than getting it right the first time. But still, that's not a humongous cost and there are so very many opportunities for optimization that chasing them without performance data is a waste of time. But when you have an actual barrier to optimizing? Then you've got a real problem. If you're committed to a technology that has a hard performance ceiling and no easy way to break the slow parts out into another technology? That's a different problem. It seems evident that Knuth's advice about premature optimization can be indiscriminately applied when you're talking about code for an individual component... but should be considered carefully against the potential costs when thinking about large architecture.

jfb 13y ago
People who quote Knuth as aphorism are rarely as smart as Knuth. The optimization quote is great, but it's usually deployed as an appeal to authority to justify a preconceived, ideological decision -- God knows, I've done this. Building software is hard, and it's not at all surprising (or reprehensible) that people will seek out shortcuts to winnow their decision space.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  > The optimization quote is great, but it's usually deployed as an appeal to authority to justify a preconceived, ideological decision -- God knows, I've done this. Most people I've known have used it as shorthand for "decisions based on optimization concerns require some justification that the optimization is important to the specific application and warrants the cost that come with it"; it's not an appeal to authority (indeed, the authority behind it is almost never referenced, just the bare quote), and its usually, IME, a defense against a preconceived, ideological decision (it works poorly to justify a preconceived, ideological decision, because it doesn't have carry much weight if the person proposing the optimization has any basis for making the claim that the proposed optimization isn't premature; as it shouldn't.)
- snowwrestler 13y ago
  I think the key to that quote is the agile mindset: the thing you think you're building might not be the thing that will actually meet the customer's need. So regular validation of a "good enough" product will be a better use of time than making the first prototype screamingly fast.