6 ms·

I was a high school athlete. I wrestled on a top-tier team, played football, and ran cross-country after a knee-injury temporarily disallowed me from football.

by JPKab 13y ago

I was a high school athlete. I wrestled on a top-tier team, played football, and ran cross-country after a knee-injury temporarily disallowed me from football. The financial impact of high school sports aren't the issue. The real issue is their impact on high school culture. School sports, especially the big, spectator friendly, fast-twitch muscle oriented sports of football, basketball, and baseball, send a big message to the student body: Athletic achievement is something that should be celebrated by all students, to the degree that it should be celebrated by the peers of the students on the field/court. As if a kid on the bleachers life has been improved because a fellow student succeeded in putting a ball through a metal ring. Academic achievement is never glorified in this way. It is viewed as something that the student and their parents (and perhaps the more conscientious teachers/faculty) celebrate. Not until junior/senior year, when it becomes clear that certain students are going to universities with big, well-known, prestigious names, is there even a remote group admiration of academically achieving students. Sports were a great thing for me. They helped me focus, taught me humility, and also how to internalize criticism into improvement. My participation in sports did jack shit to help the students who were forced to attend pep rallies, or sucked into the cultural celebration of not dropping the football despite taking a devastating hit as I passed the 1st down marker. Sports are good, but I agree: get them the fuck out of academic institutions. They have no place there.

riggins 13y ago
I'm kind of torn. Played HS sports. And I agree 100% with what you're saying. The US glorifies athletics in an unbalanced way. To quote Bill James http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/03/shakespeare_and_verlander.html http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/03/shak... Our society is very, very good at developing certain types of skills and certain types of genius. We are fantastically good at identifying and developing athletic skills—better than we are, really, at almost anything else However, the US is pretty darn successful. And considering sports is such a big part of the cultural fabric I have to wonder if sports doesn't have something to do with that success? Specifically, to throw out a hypothesis ... it would be that there are benefits to the dog eat dog competitiveness that sports teaches.
- pessimizer 13y ago
  WWII was the reason for the success of the US.
  - mcguire 13y ago
    WWII was a consequence. The large amount of untapped natural resources were the reason for the success of the US.
    - pessimizer 13y ago
      And that Europe (esp. Germany and Britain), the USSR, China, and Japan had been largely destroyed.
001sky 13y ago
Sports are good, but I agree: get them the fuck out of academic institutions. They have no place there. The counter example is that sports are linked (hitstorically) with (very) successful Academic Institutions. The notion that "they have no place there" is historically way off the mark. [Edit: Examples] [1] In 1815, Eton College documented its football [soccer] rules, the first football code to be written down anywhere in the world. [2] In 1845, the first football [Rugby?] laws were written by Rugby School pupils [3] Some historians have argued that the primary influence on Australian rules football was rugby football and other games originating in English public schools Springfield College [MA, USA] is ... famous as the site where the sport of basketball was invented: instructor and graduate student James Naismith invented the game in 1891 {etc} The real issue is their impact on high school culture. Again, this is at best culturally specific and self-referential. At best this is a political position: more time and attention should be allocated to {X} group not {Y} group. It also hinges on the false notion that (political) "merit" is correlated with "academic" merit. This is also a an obvious falsehood, and frankly the purpose of sport in schools is to teach the opposite. To use a stratup analogy: ideas are a dime a dozen. Its execution that counts. So, character is something that matters. And rightly or wrongly "character" and "teamwork" are subjects not developed/selected for in the classroom.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  High school sports only served to create social division, with sharply separated in-groups and out-groups. Some of the athletes were great people; many were arrogant jocks with an overwhelming sense of superiority and no trace of "character". Bad grades and even shoplifting were overlooked to preserve "the team."
  - Zimahl 13y ago
    To be fair, this typically doesn't happen for the tennis players, track athletes, swimmers, etc. Most of the time the teams that are aggrandized, like for football, basketball, and sometimes baseball, are the ones what get the free pass.
    - 13y ago
learc83 13y ago
Excellent point. My much younger brother runs cross country in high school. He loves running and it's great that he found a hobby he enjoys, but the problem is that he doesn't see it as a hobby. He thinks that participating in sports is making some kind of noble sacrifice for the greater good. At my parent's house he expects everyone else to sacrifice to enable him to participate, e.g., he is tired from running so someone else has to do his chores. He's been taught by his coaches that what he does isn't recreation, it's a glorious pursuit that benefits everyone else.
ceejayoz 13y ago
When I was in middle school, some friends and I won grand prize at a national robotics competition. That included middle school through university level teams. We got a brief mention in the end-of-year assembly and the person announcing it apparently wasn't told we'd won anything. Meanwhile, the basketball team making the state's Final Four game got three pep rallies, excused absences to attend, huge accolades from the administration for getting that far, etc.
- Zimahl 13y ago
  As someone who didn't play one of the glory sports (football/basketball/baseball) in high school (I played water polo and swim team), I understand the lack of accolades. Our swim team was undefeated, had won our district, and many of us were on to state and our district trophy was used a prop for what the basketball team was going after - but had not yet won. Earlier in the fall the football coach at the same school mocked my (successful) water polo team because the sport was perceived as not as 'manly' as football. As for cost, the article mentions that the school that shutdown sports was paying $1300 per football player - which just means they have poor accountants. At my high school almost all athletic costs were covered by student sports passes and event tickets. The problem is in the South where 'football is life' and they pay huge salaries for winning coaches and cathedral stadiums. Yet the South is the location of some of the worst school districts.
- dnr 13y ago
  As a counter-anecdote, my high school quiz bowl team participated in a local TV game show thing and ended up winning (in our first year!). We had to recruit a cheering section for all five rounds, and we all got excused absences. Toward the end when it looked like we had a chance of winning, we were sort of minor celebrities around school, and I got an inkling of what it might have felt like to be on a successful football team or similar. I even got compliments from people who would be grouped into the "dumb jock" social class, who I'd barely ever exchanged words with. I also participated in a bunch of math and science competitions, and got basically no recognition for those (though I did get excused absences to attend). I think the difference was the cheering section: We got to invite a bunch of friends and acquaintances to get an afternoon off from school and come make noise on a TV set. What high school student wouldn't want that? Then they went back and told their friends that it was pretty fun, and so each round we had a whole bunch more people who wanted to come. So there was a way for people who weren't on the four-person team to participate in some way and feel like they were connected to our success. Was this a better use of school time and funds than athletics? That's unclear. I think glorifying an academic contest in the same way as an athletic one sends a better message to other students, that if you're looking for that kind of recognition, there are multiple paths that are possible. [Edit: this was a public high school]
mathattack 13y ago
"Sports are good, but I agree: get them the fuck out of academic institutions. They have no place there." Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that "Sports and physical fitness are good and should be encouraged for every student"? I hear you about the problems of excess focus on a few athletes, but some schools go too far and eliminate PE and fitness activities. And on a side note - how is it possible to run long distance on a knee too injured to play football?
- JPKab 13y ago
  The state high school sports authority would not allow someone with specific categories of knee injuries to play certain sports (football included) that involved fast lateral movements until 12 months had passed from date of injury. The knee felt healed to me, and I was able to run no problem after 6 months.
  - mathattack 13y ago
    Wow, so it definitely knocks you out of a full season. Glad to hear that it worked out for you.
russellsprouts 13y ago
At my high school, there were definite groups, like the athletes, and the top students, and skaters, stoners, band kids, choir kids, etc., but there was a huge amount of overlap between them. You could find someone with any combination. My AP government class was like a cross-section of the entire school, with someone from every group, except all of us were serious about education. The varsity cross country team had an average GPA of 3.8. Some might think it would be grade-inflation, but several people went to private schools (they can participate in public school sports, because their school doesn't have a team), others took dual-credit classes at the community college. Running helped me focus, relieved stress, and gave me energy to do my homework. My grades always slipped in mid November, the only time I wasn't running. ASB, our student government, was very diverse also. We rarely put on pep-rallies. Instead, each season we held an assembly that honored every team and club's accomplishments. The point is, in my experience, the people that only participated in sports were likely to only see sports as valuable. The people that only participated in extra academics were likely to only see academics as valuable. Someone that just attended school, without doing anything else, probably wasn't doing well in school. But, someone that participated in sports and choir saw both of those as valuable, but saw academic achievement and the competitive welding team as valuable also, because they had a different perspective. It might only be the way my high school worked, but the people that participated in several different things, no matter what they were, got along better and appreciated other people's achievements much more than those who didn't participate in extra-curricular activities. I think that everyone should try a sport, try music, try drama, compete in poetry reading, or take an AP class, etc. I know my parents required us children to always do something extra. One sister is in choir, band, and drama. One is in cross country and reads a lot. Another sister plays volleyball. You won't be good at everything, but you will probably find something you are good at, and have a greater appreciation for what others do. It's important that these all take place in schools, and are well-funded, because schools are a place where a whole community comes together, and everyone can participate, no matter their socio-economic background. Sports are valuable, but most people can't afford to do them outside of school.
__--__ 13y ago
What do you suppose separating it from academic institutions is going to do? The culture of sports will still be there. You can't hack away basic human nature and seeking social status through acts of physical strength has been part of human nature for thousands, if not millions, of years. All it's going to do is further the class divide. For example, I played football in HS. It greatly improved my social status in school and allowed me to enjoy most of my 4 years of high school. The previous 6 years of schooling was marked with physical abuse because I was a fat geek. Football changed all that and provided my fellow geek friends some protection as well. I would not have been able to play had football been privatized. My parents didn't have a lot of money, we couldn't buy pads like the hockey players did. At my school, hockey wasn't a school sport. Too expensive. As a result, the hockey players were even more popular than the football players at my school because there were so few of them.

by JPKab 13y ago

riggins 13y ago

I'm kind of torn. Played HS sports. And I agree 100% with what you're saying. The US glorifies athletics in an unbalanced way. To quote Bill James http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/03/shakespeare_and_verlander.html http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/03/shak... Our society is very, very good at developing certain types of skills and certain types of genius. We are fantastically good at identifying and developing athletic skills—better than we are, really, at almost anything else However, the US is pretty darn successful. And considering sports is such a big part of the cultural fabric I have to wonder if sports doesn't have something to do with that success? Specifically, to throw out a hypothesis ... it would be that there are benefits to the dog eat dog competitiveness that sports teaches.

pessimizer 13y ago
WWII was the reason for the success of the US.
- mcguire 13y ago
  WWII was a consequence. The large amount of untapped natural resources were the reason for the success of the US.
  - pessimizer 13y ago
    And that Europe (esp. Germany and Britain), the USSR, China, and Japan had been largely destroyed.

001sky 13y ago

Sports are good, but I agree: get them the fuck out of academic institutions. They have no place there. The counter example is that sports are linked (hitstorically) with (very) successful Academic Institutions. The notion that "they have no place there" is historically way off the mark. [Edit: Examples] [1] In 1815, Eton College documented its football [soccer] rules, the first football code to be written down anywhere in the world. [2] In 1845, the first football [Rugby?] laws were written by Rugby School pupils [3] Some historians have argued that the primary influence on Australian rules football was rugby football and other games originating in English public schools Springfield College [MA, USA] is ... famous as the site where the sport of basketball was invented: instructor and graduate student James Naismith invented the game in 1891 {etc} The real issue is their impact on high school culture. Again, this is at best culturally specific and self-referential. At best this is a political position: more time and attention should be allocated to {X} group not {Y} group. It also hinges on the false notion that (political) "merit" is correlated with "academic" merit. This is also a an obvious falsehood, and frankly the purpose of sport in schools is to teach the opposite. To use a stratup analogy: ideas are a dime a dozen. Its execution that counts. So, character is something that matters. And rightly or wrongly "character" and "teamwork" are subjects not developed/selected for in the classroom.

nitrogen 13y ago
High school sports only served to create social division, with sharply separated in-groups and out-groups. Some of the athletes were great people; many were arrogant jocks with an overwhelming sense of superiority and no trace of "character". Bad grades and even shoplifting were overlooked to preserve "the team."
- Zimahl 13y ago
  To be fair, this typically doesn't happen for the tennis players, track athletes, swimmers, etc. Most of the time the teams that are aggrandized, like for football, basketball, and sometimes baseball, are the ones what get the free pass.
  - 13y ago

learc83 13y ago

Excellent point. My much younger brother runs cross country in high school. He loves running and it's great that he found a hobby he enjoys, but the problem is that he doesn't see it as a hobby. He thinks that participating in sports is making some kind of noble sacrifice for the greater good. At my parent's house he expects everyone else to sacrifice to enable him to participate, e.g., he is tired from running so someone else has to do his chores. He's been taught by his coaches that what he does isn't recreation, it's a glorious pursuit that benefits everyone else.

ceejayoz 13y ago

When I was in middle school, some friends and I won grand prize at a national robotics competition. That included middle school through university level teams. We got a brief mention in the end-of-year assembly and the person announcing it apparently wasn't told we'd won anything. Meanwhile, the basketball team making the state's Final Four game got three pep rallies, excused absences to attend, huge accolades from the administration for getting that far, etc.

Zimahl 13y ago
As someone who didn't play one of the glory sports (football/basketball/baseball) in high school (I played water polo and swim team), I understand the lack of accolades. Our swim team was undefeated, had won our district, and many of us were on to state and our district trophy was used a prop for what the basketball team was going after - but had not yet won. Earlier in the fall the football coach at the same school mocked my (successful) water polo team because the sport was perceived as not as 'manly' as football. As for cost, the article mentions that the school that shutdown sports was paying $1300 per football player - which just means they have poor accountants. At my high school almost all athletic costs were covered by student sports passes and event tickets. The problem is in the South where 'football is life' and they pay huge salaries for winning coaches and cathedral stadiums. Yet the South is the location of some of the worst school districts.
dnr 13y ago
As a counter-anecdote, my high school quiz bowl team participated in a local TV game show thing and ended up winning (in our first year!). We had to recruit a cheering section for all five rounds, and we all got excused absences. Toward the end when it looked like we had a chance of winning, we were sort of minor celebrities around school, and I got an inkling of what it might have felt like to be on a successful football team or similar. I even got compliments from people who would be grouped into the "dumb jock" social class, who I'd barely ever exchanged words with. I also participated in a bunch of math and science competitions, and got basically no recognition for those (though I did get excused absences to attend). I think the difference was the cheering section: We got to invite a bunch of friends and acquaintances to get an afternoon off from school and come make noise on a TV set. What high school student wouldn't want that? Then they went back and told their friends that it was pretty fun, and so each round we had a whole bunch more people who wanted to come. So there was a way for people who weren't on the four-person team to participate in some way and feel like they were connected to our success. Was this a better use of school time and funds than athletics? That's unclear. I think glorifying an academic contest in the same way as an athletic one sends a better message to other students, that if you're looking for that kind of recognition, there are multiple paths that are possible. [Edit: this was a public high school]

mathattack 13y ago

"Sports are good, but I agree: get them the fuck out of academic institutions. They have no place there." Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that "Sports and physical fitness are good and should be encouraged for every student"? I hear you about the problems of excess focus on a few athletes, but some schools go too far and eliminate PE and fitness activities. And on a side note - how is it possible to run long distance on a knee too injured to play football?

JPKab 13y ago
The state high school sports authority would not allow someone with specific categories of knee injuries to play certain sports (football included) that involved fast lateral movements until 12 months had passed from date of injury. The knee felt healed to me, and I was able to run no problem after 6 months.
- mathattack 13y ago
  Wow, so it definitely knocks you out of a full season. Glad to hear that it worked out for you.

russellsprouts 13y ago

At my high school, there were definite groups, like the athletes, and the top students, and skaters, stoners, band kids, choir kids, etc., but there was a huge amount of overlap between them. You could find someone with any combination. My AP government class was like a cross-section of the entire school, with someone from every group, except all of us were serious about education. The varsity cross country team had an average GPA of 3.8. Some might think it would be grade-inflation, but several people went to private schools (they can participate in public school sports, because their school doesn't have a team), others took dual-credit classes at the community college. Running helped me focus, relieved stress, and gave me energy to do my homework. My grades always slipped in mid November, the only time I wasn't running. ASB, our student government, was very diverse also. We rarely put on pep-rallies. Instead, each season we held an assembly that honored every team and club's accomplishments. The point is, in my experience, the people that only participated in sports were likely to only see sports as valuable. The people that only participated in extra academics were likely to only see academics as valuable. Someone that just attended school, without doing anything else, probably wasn't doing well in school. But, someone that participated in sports and choir saw both of those as valuable, but saw academic achievement and the competitive welding team as valuable also, because they had a different perspective. It might only be the way my high school worked, but the people that participated in several different things, no matter what they were, got along better and appreciated other people's achievements much more than those who didn't participate in extra-curricular activities. I think that everyone should try a sport, try music, try drama, compete in poetry reading, or take an AP class, etc. I know my parents required us children to always do something extra. One sister is in choir, band, and drama. One is in cross country and reads a lot. Another sister plays volleyball. You won't be good at everything, but you will probably find something you are good at, and have a greater appreciation for what others do. It's important that these all take place in schools, and are well-funded, because schools are a place where a whole community comes together, and everyone can participate, no matter their socio-economic background. Sports are valuable, but most people can't afford to do them outside of school.

__--__ 13y ago

What do you suppose separating it from academic institutions is going to do? The culture of sports will still be there. You can't hack away basic human nature and seeking social status through acts of physical strength has been part of human nature for thousands, if not millions, of years. All it's going to do is further the class divide. For example, I played football in HS. It greatly improved my social status in school and allowed me to enjoy most of my 4 years of high school. The previous 6 years of schooling was marked with physical abuse because I was a fat geek. Football changed all that and provided my fellow geek friends some protection as well. I would not have been able to play had football been privatized. My parents didn't have a lot of money, we couldn't buy pads like the hockey players did. At my school, hockey wasn't a school sport. Too expensive. As a result, the hockey players were even more popular than the football players at my school because there were so few of them.