12 ms·

Yes. I have a new rule with recruiters. If you are trying to recruit me, make me an offer. Otherwise, go away. You called me, not the other way around. I'm no

by Aqueous 13y ago

Yes. I have a new rule with recruiters. If you are trying to recruit me, make me an offer. Otherwise, go away. You called me, not the other way around. I'm not going to jump through a bunch of your hoops to prove to you for free that I can do what you already know that I can do just by looking at my resume, looking at some of my public projects, and asking me questions in an informal, short interview. And I'm certainly not going to do that knowing that, even after the end of an extremely long and taxing process, you can still refuse to offer me a job. What I've done should be proof enough. I don't want to jump through a bunch of arbitrary hoops so that I can get an incrementally higher paying job (maybe) and devote my life to working on someone else's vision. Gee, can I? I already have a job, and it might be different if I didn't. But maybe not.

Peroni 13y ago
What I've done should be proof enough. It really isn't. It may be indicative of your technical ability however your past experience doesn't give me any indication if you'd be a good culture fit.
- Aqueous 13y ago
  Do you need another 5 hours of coding to prove that I'd be a good culture fit, or would a 30 minute - 1 hour interview and the high recommendation of my references suffice?
  - Peroni 13y ago
    An hour in a relatively relaxed environment over a cup of coffee is more than enough for me to work out if you would get along with our team, work well with your potential new boss, actually enjoy working for us or not and whether or not you are likely to stay loyal to our company.
    - 7Figures2Commas 13y ago
      In a single meeting, I believe it is often easy to determine if there is likely to be no fit. Going with your gut here makes a lot of sense. But it is completely unrealistic to believe that in a single meeting you will be able to predict with any certainty that a candidate will work well with your team, enjoy the position and remain loyal. You simply can't establish these things until a person is on the job. If you do a good job not hiring obvious poor fits, the odds that your relationship with your new employee will be a fruitful one obviously increase, but don't fool yourself into believing that there isn't a lot of luck involved.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
- incision 13y ago
  >"...good culture fit." What does that mean, how is it determined via an interview and how is it weighted against all the other factors that make up a good hire?
  - Peroni 13y ago
    Granted it's a bit vague. See my response here for a more detailed explanation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6417834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6417834
  - ath0 13y ago
    The hard part of the job isn't writing code to a detailed spec that's assigned to you. It's knowing how to ask for clarification on requirements; how to balance speed of delivery with nebulous ideas of quality (how readable is my code, how effective are my tests, how extensible); how to decide which tools are right for the job. When I look for cultural fit, I mean: will you have productive conversations with your colleagues; have you shown yourself to be inquisitive about new things beyond what you're assigned so that you have a good understanding of what a solved problem looks like; will you force yourself to find a way around hard problems or will you quietly give up and call the problem impossible or blame someone else; are you interested in solving customer problems and iterating rapidly, or in building the most "well-engineered" solution; do you think your role in the organization is to build products or direct them. These aren't easy questions to answer, and they do open themselves up to bias in how you evaluate candidates. I like asking about folks' CV - even though there's already a written summary - to see what parts of a problem you considered most exciting and hard; I think that's revealing. But may not work for everyone.
- BigChiefSmokem 13y ago
  Isn't "cultural fit" another way to hide sexism, racism, and prejudice in the hiring process? I've seen it happen and it's a very good excuse to give to HR. Just like in social situations you can judge anyone pretty well in the first 5 minutes of a phone conversation, see if they will "click" with your team - hell you can almost do that just by looking at their open source (how they think/design). I don't need a high school coding exam and a 2 hour panel interview to see if someone is a "cultural fit".
  - Peroni 13y ago
    Isn't "cultural fit" another way to hide sexism, racism, and prejudice in the hiring process? I'm sure that's the case in rare circumstances. The phrase 'cultural fit' is fairly common here in the UK but I agree it may be taken a bit too literally elsewhere. The cultural fit I'm referring to is attitude, work ethic, maturity, etc. I don't need a high school coding exam and a 2 hour panel interview to see if someone is a "cultural fit". Completely agree. I can't see how that scenario could give anyone an appropriate insight into a persons character. As explained in other comments below, a relaxed, two way conversation in a comfortable environment is one of the few ways of establishing how well a candidate would adapt to life at your company.
  - jasonlotito 13y ago
    > Isn't "cultural fit" another way to hide sexism, racism, and prejudice in the hiring process? While that may be, it doesn't mean cultural fit is only used in those cases. There is a vast difference between someone who cares about doing their job well and someone who does their job. And 'cultural fit' will be used to describe that. Are you the type of person to put in your own time to advance your knowledge, or do you require the company to pay to keep you up to speed on the latest advances. I've seen both types of people. And the former is more valuable than the latter. And the former generally won't want to work with the latter, either. Granted, the former will cost more than the latter, as he brings more value to the table. You can argue the merits of 'cultural fit', but it's not just a word used to hide sexism, racism, and prejudice in the hiring process. And, personally, I think it's important because I want to enjoy the people I work with.
- 6d0debc071 13y ago
  I'd guess, might be wrong, that this isn't the type of thing was what Aqueous was referring to 'know that I can do just by looking at my resume, looking at some of my public projects, and asking me questions in an informal, short interview' I'd place emphasis on the last bit there. The trouble is that, well, I hate to be like Kant but a lot of recruiters do just seem to have conversations that are very... spanish-inquisition-y... with virtually none of your personality there. Like, when have I ever had a joke with them? Or an interesting discussion? When has a recruiter ever asked me about the people I work with/my friends? Or spent any real time talking with me my about my hobbies? Hard to bring your personality out when people are asking you things like - "Would you consider yourself competitive?" There's an underlying thing there where they're trying to guess at qualities they think contribute to behaviours they want in a very structured way rather than having a real conversation. And I'm sure we both know that people are more diverse than that, you can have lots of reasons for behaving in a particular way - not all of which the other person's going to be able to guess about. It just feels really awkward, you know? You want to know how I'll fit in with your culture, invite me out for a glass of wine or something and we'll find something to laugh about. You want to get fake-happy-happy me then stick me in a horribly formal situation. That said, I'm sure there are recruiters that treat you as human - and the more of them that are out there the better.
- mbesto 13y ago
  Furthermore, how on earth am I supposed to gauge your communication skills!?
ryguytilidie 13y ago
My god this is such an ignorant comment . Stuff like this just makes Silicon Valley look pretty disgusting honestly. If you think a list of work you've done is the only thing a company should care about than there's really not much to argue about, you're just wrong.
- Aqueous 13y ago
  I guess you failed to read my comment. Did I say it was the only thing? No. I said that the burden of proof shouldn't require three phone screens, a multi-hour (7 - 8+?) coding test, and then a 5 hour on-site interview. Companies are taking time out of people's lives to string them along on a hiring process that could last up to a month and a half, and still could result in absolutely no offer. Second, I'm not merely referring to the list of things I've done. Like many people, I have public projects online that you can download and use, and in many cases, these projects have source trees that are publically available. Yet, most of the time, companies don't even care enough to do the background research of downloading the application and using it, or looking at the source of these applications to see if they are any good. I've submitted examples of work I've done and when I got to the on-site interview, the interviewer had no idea what I was talking about - hadn't used the application, hadn't seen the source, and in one case (where the application was actually quite popular) had never even heard of it, despite the fact that I'd mentioned it in at least two of my interviews. Companies should be respectful of people's time. They shouldn't make the burden of proof so high that only the most desperate would ever agree to jump through these hoops knowing what they are in advance. I shouldn't have to complete a 10 hour programming test and then spend 5 hours proving to you on a white board that I can code. At what point do you say that my knowledge is general enough that I can pretty much approach and come to a meaningful solution for any problem that you can throw at me ? The combination of a short, in-person interview and a review of my work history and my references should be sufficient to get a grasp of my work skills and this vague concept of 'cultural fit' which seems to amount to, "Are you nice and respectful and a team player?" Any thing beyond that is disrespectful to the candidate, especially if you are trying to recruit them away from another full-time position.
- 7Figures2Commas 13y ago
  > If you think a list of work you've done is the only thing a company should care about... I don't think anybody reasonable is going to suggest that there's a single criteria on which a hiring decision should be made, but if you don't think that what you've accomplished should be pretty high on the list, finding candidates with an ability to create real business value is probably going to be much harder. Who would you rather hire: a person with a track record of delivering working solutions or a person who can code on a whiteboard?
freewheeling 13y ago
Mine is simpler: "Can I work remotely?" It seems to make them go away.
- briandear 13y ago
  Totally. Remote is the only work I'll ever do. I get more done, have great collaboration using the appropriate tools and don't have to be 'social' by being subjected to pong pong games. My work environment is perfect and therefore my work quality is among the best it has ever been. Losing the 2 hour daily commute in NYC was a huge boost to my productivity and energy.

by Aqueous 13y ago

Peroni 13y ago

What I've done should be proof enough. It really isn't. It may be indicative of your technical ability however your past experience doesn't give me any indication if you'd be a good culture fit.

Aqueous 13y ago
Do you need another 5 hours of coding to prove that I'd be a good culture fit, or would a 30 minute - 1 hour interview and the high recommendation of my references suffice?
- Peroni 13y ago
  An hour in a relatively relaxed environment over a cup of coffee is more than enough for me to work out if you would get along with our team, work well with your potential new boss, actually enjoy working for us or not and whether or not you are likely to stay loyal to our company.
  - 7Figures2Commas 13y ago
    In a single meeting, I believe it is often easy to determine if there is likely to be no fit. Going with your gut here makes a lot of sense. But it is completely unrealistic to believe that in a single meeting you will be able to predict with any certainty that a candidate will work well with your team, enjoy the position and remain loyal. You simply can't establish these things until a person is on the job. If you do a good job not hiring obvious poor fits, the odds that your relationship with your new employee will be a fruitful one obviously increase, but don't fool yourself into believing that there isn't a lot of luck involved.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
incision 13y ago
>"...good culture fit." What does that mean, how is it determined via an interview and how is it weighted against all the other factors that make up a good hire?
- Peroni 13y ago
  Granted it's a bit vague. See my response here for a more detailed explanation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6417834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6417834
- ath0 13y ago
  The hard part of the job isn't writing code to a detailed spec that's assigned to you. It's knowing how to ask for clarification on requirements; how to balance speed of delivery with nebulous ideas of quality (how readable is my code, how effective are my tests, how extensible); how to decide which tools are right for the job. When I look for cultural fit, I mean: will you have productive conversations with your colleagues; have you shown yourself to be inquisitive about new things beyond what you're assigned so that you have a good understanding of what a solved problem looks like; will you force yourself to find a way around hard problems or will you quietly give up and call the problem impossible or blame someone else; are you interested in solving customer problems and iterating rapidly, or in building the most "well-engineered" solution; do you think your role in the organization is to build products or direct them. These aren't easy questions to answer, and they do open themselves up to bias in how you evaluate candidates. I like asking about folks' CV - even though there's already a written summary - to see what parts of a problem you considered most exciting and hard; I think that's revealing. But may not work for everyone.
BigChiefSmokem 13y ago
Isn't "cultural fit" another way to hide sexism, racism, and prejudice in the hiring process? I've seen it happen and it's a very good excuse to give to HR. Just like in social situations you can judge anyone pretty well in the first 5 minutes of a phone conversation, see if they will "click" with your team - hell you can almost do that just by looking at their open source (how they think/design). I don't need a high school coding exam and a 2 hour panel interview to see if someone is a "cultural fit".
- Peroni 13y ago
  Isn't "cultural fit" another way to hide sexism, racism, and prejudice in the hiring process? I'm sure that's the case in rare circumstances. The phrase 'cultural fit' is fairly common here in the UK but I agree it may be taken a bit too literally elsewhere. The cultural fit I'm referring to is attitude, work ethic, maturity, etc. I don't need a high school coding exam and a 2 hour panel interview to see if someone is a "cultural fit". Completely agree. I can't see how that scenario could give anyone an appropriate insight into a persons character. As explained in other comments below, a relaxed, two way conversation in a comfortable environment is one of the few ways of establishing how well a candidate would adapt to life at your company.
- jasonlotito 13y ago
  > Isn't "cultural fit" another way to hide sexism, racism, and prejudice in the hiring process? While that may be, it doesn't mean cultural fit is only used in those cases. There is a vast difference between someone who cares about doing their job well and someone who does their job. And 'cultural fit' will be used to describe that. Are you the type of person to put in your own time to advance your knowledge, or do you require the company to pay to keep you up to speed on the latest advances. I've seen both types of people. And the former is more valuable than the latter. And the former generally won't want to work with the latter, either. Granted, the former will cost more than the latter, as he brings more value to the table. You can argue the merits of 'cultural fit', but it's not just a word used to hide sexism, racism, and prejudice in the hiring process. And, personally, I think it's important because I want to enjoy the people I work with.
6d0debc071 13y ago
I'd guess, might be wrong, that this isn't the type of thing was what Aqueous was referring to 'know that I can do just by looking at my resume, looking at some of my public projects, and asking me questions in an informal, short interview' I'd place emphasis on the last bit there. The trouble is that, well, I hate to be like Kant but a lot of recruiters do just seem to have conversations that are very... spanish-inquisition-y... with virtually none of your personality there. Like, when have I ever had a joke with them? Or an interesting discussion? When has a recruiter ever asked me about the people I work with/my friends? Or spent any real time talking with me my about my hobbies? Hard to bring your personality out when people are asking you things like - "Would you consider yourself competitive?" There's an underlying thing there where they're trying to guess at qualities they think contribute to behaviours they want in a very structured way rather than having a real conversation. And I'm sure we both know that people are more diverse than that, you can have lots of reasons for behaving in a particular way - not all of which the other person's going to be able to guess about. It just feels really awkward, you know? You want to know how I'll fit in with your culture, invite me out for a glass of wine or something and we'll find something to laugh about. You want to get fake-happy-happy me then stick me in a horribly formal situation. That said, I'm sure there are recruiters that treat you as human - and the more of them that are out there the better.
mbesto 13y ago
Furthermore, how on earth am I supposed to gauge your communication skills!?

ryguytilidie 13y ago

My god this is such an ignorant comment . Stuff like this just makes Silicon Valley look pretty disgusting honestly. If you think a list of work you've done is the only thing a company should care about than there's really not much to argue about, you're just wrong.

Aqueous 13y ago
I guess you failed to read my comment. Did I say it was the only thing? No. I said that the burden of proof shouldn't require three phone screens, a multi-hour (7 - 8+?) coding test, and then a 5 hour on-site interview. Companies are taking time out of people's lives to string them along on a hiring process that could last up to a month and a half, and still could result in absolutely no offer. Second, I'm not merely referring to the list of things I've done. Like many people, I have public projects online that you can download and use, and in many cases, these projects have source trees that are publically available. Yet, most of the time, companies don't even care enough to do the background research of downloading the application and using it, or looking at the source of these applications to see if they are any good. I've submitted examples of work I've done and when I got to the on-site interview, the interviewer had no idea what I was talking about - hadn't used the application, hadn't seen the source, and in one case (where the application was actually quite popular) had never even heard of it, despite the fact that I'd mentioned it in at least two of my interviews. Companies should be respectful of people's time. They shouldn't make the burden of proof so high that only the most desperate would ever agree to jump through these hoops knowing what they are in advance. I shouldn't have to complete a 10 hour programming test and then spend 5 hours proving to you on a white board that I can code. At what point do you say that my knowledge is general enough that I can pretty much approach and come to a meaningful solution for any problem that you can throw at me ? The combination of a short, in-person interview and a review of my work history and my references should be sufficient to get a grasp of my work skills and this vague concept of 'cultural fit' which seems to amount to, "Are you nice and respectful and a team player?" Any thing beyond that is disrespectful to the candidate, especially if you are trying to recruit them away from another full-time position.
7Figures2Commas 13y ago
> If you think a list of work you've done is the only thing a company should care about... I don't think anybody reasonable is going to suggest that there's a single criteria on which a hiring decision should be made, but if you don't think that what you've accomplished should be pretty high on the list, finding candidates with an ability to create real business value is probably going to be much harder. Who would you rather hire: a person with a track record of delivering working solutions or a person who can code on a whiteboard?

freewheeling 13y ago

Mine is simpler: "Can I work remotely?" It seems to make them go away.

briandear 13y ago
Totally. Remote is the only work I'll ever do. I get more done, have great collaboration using the appropriate tools and don't have to be 'social' by being subjected to pong pong games. My work environment is perfect and therefore my work quality is among the best it has ever been. Losing the 2 hour daily commute in NYC was a huge boost to my productivity and energy.