8 ms·

The Case Against High-School Sports

77 points by rmah 13y ago

jcampbell1 13y ago
The obsession with math education in East Asian countries is not without its cost. These countries all have a terrible gender gap in educational attainment and economic earnings. Women get marginalized before they even graduate high school. Given that female per capita earnings in the US are higher than all countries except Norway and Luxembourg, I can't help but think our system is doing something right. I am not sure this directly relates to sports, but something about our system is creating the world's most successful women.
- tokenadult 13y ago
  These countries all have a terrible gender gap in educational attainment and economic earnings. I call b___s___ on that, having lived in one of those countries, and invite you to produce statistics backing up your statement. The East Asian country I know best, Taiwan, has had more female than male participation in higher education for at least a generation, and generally has equal pay for equal work and plenty of female access to professional occupations. The same is surely true of Singapore, a country many of my friends live in. I cannot attribute any remaining gender inequality in that country or other countries to an emphasis on strong mathematics education--to the contrary, helping elementary pupils get a good background in mathematics probably helps women cope with the tough issue that they deal with, having to do more to reproduce the next generation than men have to do.
  - jcampbell1 13y ago
    You are quite right. I was thinking about Japan/Korea, and some statistics I had looked up years ago. I can't find any information on Taiwan, but have a look a some of the gender equality for Japan/Korea. The numbers are quite abysmal. On the other hand Singapore is top of the world. See: http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GenderGap_Report_2012.pdf http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GenderGap_Report_2012.pdf p.224 Japan ,p.232 Korea, p.358 US, p.318 Singapore. It seems the problem is isolated to Japan and Korea, and likely has nothing to do with sports, math education, nor East-Asia.
  - w1ntermute 13y ago
    I think that Chinese culture is less patriarchal than Korean and Japanese culture, which is the reason for Taiwan being like you say. In South Korea and Japan, the situation is very different.
mathattack 13y ago
I am a big believer in investing in physical fitness for students, and think that sports can be great for learning teamwork and hard work. I'm not such a believer for focusing physical fitness money on a narrow subset of students in competitive-entry teams. I think that schools use sports and team spirit to mask other problems with their programs. It is a shame that schools spend money on a small subset of their student's athletic careers when they perform so miserably in academic subjects.
- dingaling 13y ago
  > and think that sports can be great for learning teamwork and hard work I agree that they develop hard work and commitment, but I've always been sceptical about the teamwork aspects. Teamwork should enable a group of people to achieve more than the individual. Most sports are not like that: practically, it makes no difference if each football team has one player or 11. The objective ( score against the opposition ) would still be achieved. Perhaps to a lesser magnitude, but still achieved. Real teamwork development requires tasks that are physically impossible for a single person.
twoodfin 13y ago
Every dollar spent on art classes or chess club is also a dollar not spent on math, but few are suggesting those endeavors aren't worthwhile. Sports are a big target, but they're a big target because they're wildly popular and a huge part of the culture in many U.S. locales. Do you think youth football, soccer or baseball would go away if schools stopped funding them? Public schools are, for better and worse, one of the most democratic institutions in our society, and the activities they offer students reflect that. When done right, there's a benefit to running youth athletics through schools: Practice time and other scheduling can be balanced against academic requirements, coaches (who are often also teachers) can monitor how performance is being affected on and off the field, etc. Like anything else, there are tradeoffs and in a nation with tens of thousands of locally-run school districts some places will go way too far in one direction, but it's Utopian to imagine that, say, kids in rural Texas will stop playing football. (And this is all without mentioning the many positive influences of well-run athletic competition on students: Health, teamwork, the rewards of focused effort...)
- elp1stolero 13y ago
  Just want to say how refreshing it is to hear someone mention 'Trade-offs' rather than 'solutions.' For me, that is typically a way to spot the difference between economic thinking (former), and political thinking (latter).
- fusiongyro 13y ago
  Probably because those endeavors (art, math, chess) are cheap compared to football. When looking at the budget, the most expensive items are going to get more scrutiny.
  - xahrepap 13y ago
    football (and other sports) also brings in more income (ticket sales, team shirts, etc) for the school than art, math, and chess do.
- brudgers 13y ago
  Public schools in the US are egalitarian and as public institutions ultimately subject to the will of voters via elected representatives. However, they tend not to be democratic in a sense which would support your thesis in regard to sport. The standard model for eligibility for scholastically sponsored sports at the high school level is wholly dependent upon were the child lives. Thus High School athletes typically are not free to choose a team which best meets their individual needs. If the coach basketball coach has a bias against atheists [and in plenty of public schools team prayer is regular and expected] or there is depth at their position or the program simply operates on a seniors-get-first-priority basis, the player is not free to move on.* In other words, public school sports are largely organized around exclusive geographic franchise rights and there are extensive rules to prevent playing for whom one chooses and severe penalties for doing so by circumventing those rules. Furthermore, many high school athletic associations restrict how, where, and with whom a player may play in the off season - e.g. by limiting the number of players from the high school team who may play on a club basketball team together during the off season [and that's without considering restrictions on their ability to monetize their athletic fame or talent]. * NCAA rules also severely restrict player movement at the college level - while coaches may switch teams every season.
tokenadult 13y ago
The author notes about herself, "When I was growing up in New Jersey, not far from where Jenny now lives, I played soccer from age 7 to 17. I was relieved to find a place where girls were not expected to sit quietly or look pretty, and I still love the game. Like most other Americans, I can rattle off the many benefits of high-school sports: exercise, lessons in sportsmanship and perseverance, school spirit, and just plain fun. All of those things matter, and Jenny finds it refreshing to attend a school that is about so much more than academics. But as I’ve traveled around the world visiting places that do things differently—and get better results—I’ve started to wonder about the trade-offs we make." And then she reviews the history of high school sports in the United States, and points to some key examples of places where high school sports are a big part of the local culture (Texas) and what happened when one high school there shut down its competitive sports program: "That first semester, 80 percent of the students passed their classes, compared with 50 percent the previous fall. About 160 people attended parent-teacher night, compared with six the year before. Principal Ruiz was so excited that he went out and took pictures of the parking lot, jammed with cars. Through some combination of new leadership, the threat of closure, and a renewed emphasis on academics, Premont’s culture changed. 'There’s been a definite decline in misbehavior,' says Desiree Valdez, who teaches speech, theater, and creative writing at Premont. 'I’m struggling to recall a fight. Before, it was one every couple of weeks.'" Simply put, the author is giving a balanced account that does not accuse sports of being all bad, but simply suggests from real-world examples that SCHOOL sports are overemphasized in the United States. Having lived in two different countries, and having decided to have all four of my children involved in competitive, organized team sports through local "travel" soccer programs, I have to agree. The trade-offs the author recommends make sense for a balanced United States education policy.
- barranger 13y ago
  The problem is that multiple changes we made at the same time in that school: 1) Giving Teaches more time for training and planing 2) Making students wear uniforms 3) Aligning the curriculum with more rigorous state standards 4) Drop the sports program Then spends the rest of the article giving all the credit for the improved test scores to a lack of sports.
pge 13y ago
I played sports all through college, and looking back I wonder why i played for my college team and not a local club. Particularly looking at the culture and impact of sports at the college level (most notably football and basketball). It seems to me that decoupling sports from schools at both college and high school level would realign incentives better.
jasonlotito 13y ago
Once again, all high-school sports are lumped together as if the problem, rather than the spending typically found for Football. The story glosses over this fact, despite the fact that the school that was the primary focus didn't eliminate all sports. In the end, they cut out spending so much on sports. Another factor is the way testing is done. For far too long I've been hearing about the problems of standardized testing, and the problems it holds. These rankings: how are they determined? Are they any better then standardized testing? Finally, we ignore the fact that math and science are not the end of the road. I've seen more done by sports teams to help the community then by any chess club (and yes, I was on the chess club). Working with under-privileged or special needs children, being involved with the community, and all together, learning to be leaders and contributors in society. What values are we losing by removing sports? Yes, their might be other ways to obtain those values. But we are throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. At the end of the day, what seemed to matter was proper budgeting, increasing standards, and overall, the attitude of the administration.
gr3yh47 13y ago
This is an absurd argument (Stop spending money on sports and rather spend it on real education) rather, we should spend less money on things like policing the rest of the world/inflating the defense sector's wallets and channel THAT money into education/infrastructure/healthcare/many other things
- fusiongyro 13y ago
  "Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them."
JPKab 13y ago
I was a high school athlete. I wrestled on a top-tier team, played football, and ran cross-country after a knee-injury temporarily disallowed me from football. The financial impact of high school sports aren't the issue. The real issue is their impact on high school culture. School sports, especially the big, spectator friendly, fast-twitch muscle oriented sports of football, basketball, and baseball, send a big message to the student body: Athletic achievement is something that should be celebrated by all students, to the degree that it should be celebrated by the peers of the students on the field/court. As if a kid on the bleachers life has been improved because a fellow student succeeded in putting a ball through a metal ring. Academic achievement is never glorified in this way. It is viewed as something that the student and their parents (and perhaps the more conscientious teachers/faculty) celebrate. Not until junior/senior year, when it becomes clear that certain students are going to universities with big, well-known, prestigious names, is there even a remote group admiration of academically achieving students. Sports were a great thing for me. They helped me focus, taught me humility, and also how to internalize criticism into improvement. My participation in sports did jack shit to help the students who were forced to attend pep rallies, or sucked into the cultural celebration of not dropping the football despite taking a devastating hit as I passed the 1st down marker. Sports are good, but I agree: get them the fuck out of academic institutions. They have no place there.
- riggins 13y ago
  I'm kind of torn. Played HS sports. And I agree 100% with what you're saying. The US glorifies athletics in an unbalanced way. To quote Bill James http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/03/shakespeare_and_verlander.html http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/03/shak... Our society is very, very good at developing certain types of skills and certain types of genius. We are fantastically good at identifying and developing athletic skills—better than we are, really, at almost anything else However, the US is pretty darn successful. And considering sports is such a big part of the cultural fabric I have to wonder if sports doesn't have something to do with that success? Specifically, to throw out a hypothesis ... it would be that there are benefits to the dog eat dog competitiveness that sports teaches.
  - 13y ago
socrates1998 13y ago
I coached high school football and I have always thought the high emphasis on sports in American education is a bit strange. Does that mean it is bad? No, I don't think so. Last year, the high school I coached at had to raise about $30,000 for it's football program. The school or district didn't pay for it, the program had to raise it itself. Also, most of the players were low-income, high risk students. Football gave them a reason to go to school and a way to go to college. On average, just our team has helped 7-10 players each year go to college when they probably wouldn't have done so without football. Could their be a better system? Of course, but right now, high schools sports are a net positive, I think.
supercanuck 13y ago
As a kid growing up in hockey crazed Canada, the hockey teams are seperate from the education system but the culture is no less crazy. Is the education achievments of Canada any different than the United States? As an example, all you need to do is go to Surrey, BC to see a complex with three ice rinks connected to the Skytrain.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
debacle 13y ago
I really feel like this is a regional thing. At the high school I went to, the football team played second fiddle to the soccer team, but in general, unless you bought your own equipment, you were still playing with helmets, uniforms, and other equipment that was somewhat fecund. There were plenty of times that players sat because of grades or disciplinary actions, and the football players were no more prestigious than the Frisbee golf club. Sports were treated as "just another club," and while their budget was obviously larger than other clubs (some larger than others), I don't think they were anything near the stories we hear about the southern states who can't afford text books but have football stadiums that rival some colleges. Schools need a healthy balance between education and personal development, and I think that sports go a long way towards personal development, whether they be team sports or individual sports.
the_watcher 13y ago
It's interesting that the author concludes that school sports are over-emphasized over club and travel teams (just to be clear, I think there are a lot of good points in the article). I played sports in high school, as did my brother and sister. My experience (and my understanding of a lot of the West Coast) was almost the opposite. Our high school soccer season was considered almost like the offseason compared to the club season, which required way more time and travel, and was also the path to college recruitment. My sister's experience with volleyball was the same. In basketball and baseball, AAU and travel teams take up much more time than school sports, most of which actually have some limits on when practice can occur (we couldn't have anything on Sundays related to school sports, but club had no such rules). Football is the only exception to this, in my experience. Maybe the East Coast is different, but when I was growing up and going through the recruiting process, school sports didn't take up nearly as much of my attention.
rayiner 13y ago
I find it amusing that in a country where so many people are obese, diabetic, etc, people are characterizing sports as the problem. If anything, there is too much "learning" in school and not enough sports! All over the country, physical education programs are being cut to make way for more instruction on native Americans, as if that's really what society needs.
- lumberjack 13y ago
  Sports and physical activity are not the same. The way sports is done in high school, alienates anyone who does not care to compete athletically and dedicate a good chuck of their time towards that goal. Sports is also not the healthiest option around. I have many friends who still suffer from injuries that they relate back to their days of football practice and such. What high schools should have is a continuum of the physical education classes in middle school. In fact I think it would be much more productive a class in high school because by then the students would be mature enough to understand that the class is not just an hour of wasted time.
  - jtheory 13y ago
    Yes - I ran cross country and track in HS, and it was very much not a jogging club for people to get in better shape and have fun. We were training for races against other schools. Our coach was pretty laid back, but still, everyone knew everyone else's times, everyone had to compete in public in skimpy uniforms,etc.
    - jtheory 13y ago
      [Self-replying because I can't seem to write more than a few lines in the mobile interface...] I personally did get a lot out of HS sport; I was a shy kid who could run fast, so I became a mini hero/authority in my small fish pond - but I have to agree with the article's point that the majority of the students were not benefiting.
- mcguire 13y ago
  "All over the country, physical education programs are being cut to make way for more instruction on native Americans,..." [[Citation Needed]]
skizm 13y ago
Athletics and after-school programs are probably some of the best thing schools can spend their money on (apart from good teachers). I agree maybe they get in the way of studies when students are forced to attend pep-rallies or something similar but that is just bad school administration and needs to be dealt with on an individual school level. Apart from all the soft skills that are tough to test for like leadership, organizational skills, and work ethic, sports have a tangible effect on grades; that is they improve them. I would cite studies but there are literally too many to cite. Just google "athlete gpa vs non athlete" or something similar and there won't be one link suggesting that non-athletes get better grades (on average). Athletics are also a path to a better college and give kids constructive outlets for their time and energy. Yes they happen to be pretty expensive but are totally worth it IMO because, guess what? I don't want to be like some other countries that keep their kids' noses to the grindstone all day to prep them for "a test of critical thinking in math". We should really be teaching our kids how to do their taxes, change a tire and interpret medical test results and not how to take tests.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  Athletes get better grades in high school because they are encouraged by GPA requirements to take easier classes, and because teachers are pressured to inflate athletes' grades to keep them playing. Local sports can be good; I played soccer in a non-school league. School-sponsored teams only divide students and create perverse incentives.
  - skizm 13y ago
    That is total speculation and I would guess totally false since standardized testing scores are higher for athletes also.
    - Retric 13y ago
      Athletes are by definition reasonably healthy and healthy people are as a rule both more intelligent and do better at work / school than non healthy people. Further, athletes are required to have a minimum GPA which has both a positive and dramatic impact on testing scores. AKA compare everyone with everyone with a 2.0+ GPA and you will see a positive correlation. PS: You can correct for these factors, but it's far less common than you might think to do so as correlations are published more often than null results.
Datsundere 13y ago
They should've stopped spending money on sports instead of firing teachers during the recession (recession being a relative term).
- antoko 13y ago
  Recession is never a relative term, it has a specific meaning, 2 or more consecutive quarters of negative economic growth as measured by real GDP. Hmm apparently I'm not nearly on as solid ground as I thought with regard to this. I've been in the States for 11 years and apparently still have a UK/Euro bias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession#Definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession#Definition In the United States, the Business Cycle Dating Committee of the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) is generally seen as the authority for dating US recessions. The NBER defines an economic recession as: "a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales."[5] Almost universally, academics, economists, policy makers, and businesses defer to the determination by the NBER for the precise dating of a recession's onset and end. In the United Kingdom, recessions are generally defined as two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth, as measured by the seasonal adjusted quarter-on-quarter figures for real GDP.[6][7] The exact same recession definition apply for all member states of the European Union.
protomyth 13y ago
Sports, with the right attitude, are a good thing. They teach you about winning and losing, instill a bit of discipline, and provide some fun. I find a lot of arguments about sports to come down to not everyone enjoys or participates in sports. I find that a dangerous way to think since that could just as easily lead to the cancellation of other programs. For a lot of kids, sports and the academic requirements to participate in sports are the only thing keeping them interested in school.
ameister14 13y ago
I coached sports in a very blue collar town, and I know several of the students had no positive male role models, no structure provided for them at home, and no incentive to perform academically. Then they joined our team, and suddenly they had people willing to help them, a bond with other students they hadnt possessed before, and a structure they needed. They had to pass their classes now because they wanted to play, and we taught them to be more respectful of their teachers and administrators. These kids went from being trouble at the school to just normal kids. That is because of sports and nothing else. Could they have afforded to play on a team not affiliated with the school? Probably not.
gz5 13y ago
I think most of us subscribe to the benefits of sports (and other extra-curricular activities). That said, how about the professional leagues sending money back into school budgets (x% of ticket sales)? They also benefit from HS sports... Certainly money is not the only answer to the overall education problems raised in the article - but it could be part of the solution - and I think we want to find sources that don't potentially rob Peter to pay Paul, or have significant intended and unintended consequences and ripple effects.
alexeisadeski3 13y ago
I find sports emphasis far less troubling than the author's focus on standardized test scores.
geebee 13y ago
I'm always a little sad to see a case made against sports, since I do think that participation in sports can be an exceptionally positive force in a young (or old!) person's life - when the culture of sports emphasizes honest competition and respect for your opponent. It's about wanting to win but realizing that winning isn't the goal at all. You know, when it's match point, and there's a ball that was probably out, but you didn't see it clearly, and you know the rules - if you can't make the call, the point and match goes to your opponent. Go shake hands with your head held high. It doesn't matter if you're a crappy tennis player or a great one. You played hard, and you played fairly. Unfortunately, what I just described isn't really sports in America. There's no way to tell this next anecdote without admitting that I watched "The Biggest Loser", so let's just get that out of the way now. Ok. so. There was this section where an NFL player shows up to talk about how the NFL takes fitness and obesity seriously, and so, they're announcing a "fifteen thousand dollar" (well, I don't remember the exact amount) donation to help fight obesity. So, a league that makes billions off people who rarely exercise and sit on their sofa watching people play an expensive sport that probably badly harms people when played as intended and is largely inaccessible in the form played professionally (tag or flag football is a different thing, and is kind of fun in my opinion), raking in millions (billions?) in ad dollars by subjecting the non-exercising viewers to barrage of advertisements for empty calorie foods supplemented with a chemical scientists use to induce obesity in lab rats, is now going to donate 0.000001% of the budget to purchase some unused exercise equipment to help fight obesity. Ok, I'm not sure it goes exactly like that, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't go exactly unlike that. And here's one more problem - I really like college football. I just hate what it has become. There may be a middle ground here. http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/04/22/should-colleges-get-rid-of-competitive-sports/division-iii-sports-are-good-for-campus-health http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/04/22/should-colle... And supposedly (according to the NYTimes) watching pro tennis players does improve the games of amateurs, so maybe there's some benefits to watching instead of just playing. At least, that's what I'll tell myself for now...
vinceguidry 13y ago
I didn't read the article. The entire idea is a non-starter. Killing high school sports will kill the entire professional sports industry. Professional athletes have been getting better and better and the reason is that kids are starting younger and younger, programs get better and better. Professional sports depends on this in the same way that market investing depends on growth. Without it, the whole scheme falls apart. Try to do this and you'll invoke the wrath of the most powerful entertainment sector on the planet. They will shut you down faster than the Falcons get owned at the playoffs.
mp01 13y ago
Too many people here seem to be missing the point of the article. The title is "The Case Against High-School Sports" not "The Case Against Sports". The argument is whether an academic institution should be spending so much of its (potentially tight) budget on athletics and whether it should be glorifying athletic accomplishments so much more than it does academic accomplishments. I've played sports, both in-school and out-of-school, almost my entire life and I love sports as much as anyone else, and I think the article makes a valid argument. Sports are great and kids can learn a lot from them, but I don't think school-affiliated sports over many benefits over club-affiliated sports, and even if they did, I question whether those benefits outweigh the costs of schools putting so many resources into them. edit: I was missing a word
bhewes 13y ago
I played HS Baseball in Oklahoma. One year we lost to Jenks in the state finals. Only thing I wish, is I was better. HS baseball was my outlet from the physical prison that is modern suburbia. Now my outlet is weight lifting and sparing, and I probably spend 20 hours a week on 'worthless' physical activity. Just because the author wants to live in her head all the time does not mean the rest of us do.
migrantgeek 13y ago
I've started seeing a massage therapist for my back and when they gave me a tour of the office they showed me a shrine of the local high school football team with autographed pictures, helmets, etc. The kid giving me the tour was proud to announce "we take care of the high school football team!". I looked it up after and it turns out the school pays for these kids to get massages so they play better football. I pay nearly 700 a month to the ISD in taxes because I own a home. It hurts me to know that some of that pays for a teenager to get a massage before each big game. I realize I am in Texas but it's still maddening that this goes on.
tzs 13y ago
> Even in eighth grade, American kids spend more than twice the time Korean kids spend playing sports, according to a 2010 study published in the Journal of Advanced Academics Of course American kids spend more time on sports. They don't have super fast internet and live in a country where Starcraft players can get corporate sponsorship and make a living playing the game. Did the study take this into account?

77 points by rmah 13y ago

The obsession with math education in East Asian countries is not without its cost. These countries all have a terrible gender gap in educational attainment and economic earnings. Women get marginalized before they even graduate high school. Given that female per capita earnings in the US are higher than all countries except Norway and Luxembourg, I can't help but think our system is doing something right. I am not sure this directly relates to sports, but something about our system is creating the world's most successful women.

tokenadult 13y ago
These countries all have a terrible gender gap in educational attainment and economic earnings. I call b___s___ on that, having lived in one of those countries, and invite you to produce statistics backing up your statement. The East Asian country I know best, Taiwan, has had more female than male participation in higher education for at least a generation, and generally has equal pay for equal work and plenty of female access to professional occupations. The same is surely true of Singapore, a country many of my friends live in. I cannot attribute any remaining gender inequality in that country or other countries to an emphasis on strong mathematics education--to the contrary, helping elementary pupils get a good background in mathematics probably helps women cope with the tough issue that they deal with, having to do more to reproduce the next generation than men have to do.
- jcampbell1 13y ago
  You are quite right. I was thinking about Japan/Korea, and some statistics I had looked up years ago. I can't find any information on Taiwan, but have a look a some of the gender equality for Japan/Korea. The numbers are quite abysmal. On the other hand Singapore is top of the world. See: http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GenderGap_Report_2012.pdf http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GenderGap_Report_2012.pdf p.224 Japan ,p.232 Korea, p.358 US, p.318 Singapore. It seems the problem is isolated to Japan and Korea, and likely has nothing to do with sports, math education, nor East-Asia.
- w1ntermute 13y ago
  I think that Chinese culture is less patriarchal than Korean and Japanese culture, which is the reason for Taiwan being like you say. In South Korea and Japan, the situation is very different.

mathattack 13y ago

I am a big believer in investing in physical fitness for students, and think that sports can be great for learning teamwork and hard work. I'm not such a believer for focusing physical fitness money on a narrow subset of students in competitive-entry teams. I think that schools use sports and team spirit to mask other problems with their programs. It is a shame that schools spend money on a small subset of their student's athletic careers when they perform so miserably in academic subjects.

dingaling 13y ago
> and think that sports can be great for learning teamwork and hard work I agree that they develop hard work and commitment, but I've always been sceptical about the teamwork aspects. Teamwork should enable a group of people to achieve more than the individual. Most sports are not like that: practically, it makes no difference if each football team has one player or 11. The objective ( score against the opposition ) would still be achieved. Perhaps to a lesser magnitude, but still achieved. Real teamwork development requires tasks that are physically impossible for a single person.

twoodfin 13y ago

Every dollar spent on art classes or chess club is also a dollar not spent on math, but few are suggesting those endeavors aren't worthwhile. Sports are a big target, but they're a big target because they're wildly popular and a huge part of the culture in many U.S. locales. Do you think youth football, soccer or baseball would go away if schools stopped funding them? Public schools are, for better and worse, one of the most democratic institutions in our society, and the activities they offer students reflect that. When done right, there's a benefit to running youth athletics through schools: Practice time and other scheduling can be balanced against academic requirements, coaches (who are often also teachers) can monitor how performance is being affected on and off the field, etc. Like anything else, there are tradeoffs and in a nation with tens of thousands of locally-run school districts some places will go way too far in one direction, but it's Utopian to imagine that, say, kids in rural Texas will stop playing football. (And this is all without mentioning the many positive influences of well-run athletic competition on students: Health, teamwork, the rewards of focused effort...)

elp1stolero 13y ago
Just want to say how refreshing it is to hear someone mention 'Trade-offs' rather than 'solutions.' For me, that is typically a way to spot the difference between economic thinking (former), and political thinking (latter).
fusiongyro 13y ago
Probably because those endeavors (art, math, chess) are cheap compared to football. When looking at the budget, the most expensive items are going to get more scrutiny.
- xahrepap 13y ago
  football (and other sports) also brings in more income (ticket sales, team shirts, etc) for the school than art, math, and chess do.
brudgers 13y ago
Public schools in the US are egalitarian and as public institutions ultimately subject to the will of voters via elected representatives. However, they tend not to be democratic in a sense which would support your thesis in regard to sport. The standard model for eligibility for scholastically sponsored sports at the high school level is wholly dependent upon were the child lives. Thus High School athletes typically are not free to choose a team which best meets their individual needs. If the coach basketball coach has a bias against atheists [and in plenty of public schools team prayer is regular and expected] or there is depth at their position or the program simply operates on a seniors-get-first-priority basis, the player is not free to move on.* In other words, public school sports are largely organized around exclusive geographic franchise rights and there are extensive rules to prevent playing for whom one chooses and severe penalties for doing so by circumventing those rules. Furthermore, many high school athletic associations restrict how, where, and with whom a player may play in the off season - e.g. by limiting the number of players from the high school team who may play on a club basketball team together during the off season [and that's without considering restrictions on their ability to monetize their athletic fame or talent]. * NCAA rules also severely restrict player movement at the college level - while coaches may switch teams every season.

tokenadult 13y ago

The author notes about herself, "When I was growing up in New Jersey, not far from where Jenny now lives, I played soccer from age 7 to 17. I was relieved to find a place where girls were not expected to sit quietly or look pretty, and I still love the game. Like most other Americans, I can rattle off the many benefits of high-school sports: exercise, lessons in sportsmanship and perseverance, school spirit, and just plain fun. All of those things matter, and Jenny finds it refreshing to attend a school that is about so much more than academics. But as I’ve traveled around the world visiting places that do things differently—and get better results—I’ve started to wonder about the trade-offs we make." And then she reviews the history of high school sports in the United States, and points to some key examples of places where high school sports are a big part of the local culture (Texas) and what happened when one high school there shut down its competitive sports program: "That first semester, 80 percent of the students passed their classes, compared with 50 percent the previous fall. About 160 people attended parent-teacher night, compared with six the year before. Principal Ruiz was so excited that he went out and took pictures of the parking lot, jammed with cars. Through some combination of new leadership, the threat of closure, and a renewed emphasis on academics, Premont’s culture changed. 'There’s been a definite decline in misbehavior,' says Desiree Valdez, who teaches speech, theater, and creative writing at Premont. 'I’m struggling to recall a fight. Before, it was one every couple of weeks.'" Simply put, the author is giving a balanced account that does not accuse sports of being all bad, but simply suggests from real-world examples that SCHOOL sports are overemphasized in the United States. Having lived in two different countries, and having decided to have all four of my children involved in competitive, organized team sports through local "travel" soccer programs, I have to agree. The trade-offs the author recommends make sense for a balanced United States education policy.

barranger 13y ago
The problem is that multiple changes we made at the same time in that school: 1) Giving Teaches more time for training and planing 2) Making students wear uniforms 3) Aligning the curriculum with more rigorous state standards 4) Drop the sports program Then spends the rest of the article giving all the credit for the improved test scores to a lack of sports.

pge 13y ago

I played sports all through college, and looking back I wonder why i played for my college team and not a local club. Particularly looking at the culture and impact of sports at the college level (most notably football and basketball). It seems to me that decoupling sports from schools at both college and high school level would realign incentives better.

jasonlotito 13y ago

Once again, all high-school sports are lumped together as if the problem, rather than the spending typically found for Football. The story glosses over this fact, despite the fact that the school that was the primary focus didn't eliminate all sports. In the end, they cut out spending so much on sports. Another factor is the way testing is done. For far too long I've been hearing about the problems of standardized testing, and the problems it holds. These rankings: how are they determined? Are they any better then standardized testing? Finally, we ignore the fact that math and science are not the end of the road. I've seen more done by sports teams to help the community then by any chess club (and yes, I was on the chess club). Working with under-privileged or special needs children, being involved with the community, and all together, learning to be leaders and contributors in society. What values are we losing by removing sports? Yes, their might be other ways to obtain those values. But we are throwing out the baby with the bathwater here. At the end of the day, what seemed to matter was proper budgeting, increasing standards, and overall, the attitude of the administration.

gr3yh47 13y ago

This is an absurd argument (Stop spending money on sports and rather spend it on real education) rather, we should spend less money on things like policing the rest of the world/inflating the defense sector's wallets and channel THAT money into education/infrastructure/healthcare/many other things

fusiongyro 13y ago
"Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them."

JPKab 13y ago

I was a high school athlete. I wrestled on a top-tier team, played football, and ran cross-country after a knee-injury temporarily disallowed me from football. The financial impact of high school sports aren't the issue. The real issue is their impact on high school culture. School sports, especially the big, spectator friendly, fast-twitch muscle oriented sports of football, basketball, and baseball, send a big message to the student body: Athletic achievement is something that should be celebrated by all students, to the degree that it should be celebrated by the peers of the students on the field/court. As if a kid on the bleachers life has been improved because a fellow student succeeded in putting a ball through a metal ring. Academic achievement is never glorified in this way. It is viewed as something that the student and their parents (and perhaps the more conscientious teachers/faculty) celebrate. Not until junior/senior year, when it becomes clear that certain students are going to universities with big, well-known, prestigious names, is there even a remote group admiration of academically achieving students. Sports were a great thing for me. They helped me focus, taught me humility, and also how to internalize criticism into improvement. My participation in sports did jack shit to help the students who were forced to attend pep rallies, or sucked into the cultural celebration of not dropping the football despite taking a devastating hit as I passed the 1st down marker. Sports are good, but I agree: get them the fuck out of academic institutions. They have no place there.

riggins 13y ago
I'm kind of torn. Played HS sports. And I agree 100% with what you're saying. The US glorifies athletics in an unbalanced way. To quote Bill James http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/03/shakespeare_and_verlander.html http://www.slate.com/articles/sports/sports_nut/2011/03/shak... Our society is very, very good at developing certain types of skills and certain types of genius. We are fantastically good at identifying and developing athletic skills—better than we are, really, at almost anything else However, the US is pretty darn successful. And considering sports is such a big part of the cultural fabric I have to wonder if sports doesn't have something to do with that success? Specifically, to throw out a hypothesis ... it would be that there are benefits to the dog eat dog competitiveness that sports teaches.
- 13y ago

socrates1998 13y ago

I coached high school football and I have always thought the high emphasis on sports in American education is a bit strange. Does that mean it is bad? No, I don't think so. Last year, the high school I coached at had to raise about $30,000 for it's football program. The school or district didn't pay for it, the program had to raise it itself. Also, most of the players were low-income, high risk students. Football gave them a reason to go to school and a way to go to college. On average, just our team has helped 7-10 players each year go to college when they probably wouldn't have done so without football. Could their be a better system? Of course, but right now, high schools sports are a net positive, I think.

supercanuck 13y ago

As a kid growing up in hockey crazed Canada, the hockey teams are seperate from the education system but the culture is no less crazy. Is the education achievments of Canada any different than the United States? As an example, all you need to do is go to Surrey, BC to see a complex with three ice rinks connected to the Skytrain.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

debacle 13y ago

I really feel like this is a regional thing. At the high school I went to, the football team played second fiddle to the soccer team, but in general, unless you bought your own equipment, you were still playing with helmets, uniforms, and other equipment that was somewhat fecund. There were plenty of times that players sat because of grades or disciplinary actions, and the football players were no more prestigious than the Frisbee golf club. Sports were treated as "just another club," and while their budget was obviously larger than other clubs (some larger than others), I don't think they were anything near the stories we hear about the southern states who can't afford text books but have football stadiums that rival some colleges. Schools need a healthy balance between education and personal development, and I think that sports go a long way towards personal development, whether they be team sports or individual sports.

the_watcher 13y ago

It's interesting that the author concludes that school sports are over-emphasized over club and travel teams (just to be clear, I think there are a lot of good points in the article). I played sports in high school, as did my brother and sister. My experience (and my understanding of a lot of the West Coast) was almost the opposite. Our high school soccer season was considered almost like the offseason compared to the club season, which required way more time and travel, and was also the path to college recruitment. My sister's experience with volleyball was the same. In basketball and baseball, AAU and travel teams take up much more time than school sports, most of which actually have some limits on when practice can occur (we couldn't have anything on Sundays related to school sports, but club had no such rules). Football is the only exception to this, in my experience. Maybe the East Coast is different, but when I was growing up and going through the recruiting process, school sports didn't take up nearly as much of my attention.

rayiner 13y ago

I find it amusing that in a country where so many people are obese, diabetic, etc, people are characterizing sports as the problem. If anything, there is too much "learning" in school and not enough sports! All over the country, physical education programs are being cut to make way for more instruction on native Americans, as if that's really what society needs.

lumberjack 13y ago
Sports and physical activity are not the same. The way sports is done in high school, alienates anyone who does not care to compete athletically and dedicate a good chuck of their time towards that goal. Sports is also not the healthiest option around. I have many friends who still suffer from injuries that they relate back to their days of football practice and such. What high schools should have is a continuum of the physical education classes in middle school. In fact I think it would be much more productive a class in high school because by then the students would be mature enough to understand that the class is not just an hour of wasted time.
- jtheory 13y ago
  Yes - I ran cross country and track in HS, and it was very much not a jogging club for people to get in better shape and have fun. We were training for races against other schools. Our coach was pretty laid back, but still, everyone knew everyone else's times, everyone had to compete in public in skimpy uniforms,etc.
  - jtheory 13y ago
    [Self-replying because I can't seem to write more than a few lines in the mobile interface...] I personally did get a lot out of HS sport; I was a shy kid who could run fast, so I became a mini hero/authority in my small fish pond - but I have to agree with the article's point that the majority of the students were not benefiting.
mcguire 13y ago
"All over the country, physical education programs are being cut to make way for more instruction on native Americans,..." [[Citation Needed]]

skizm 13y ago

Athletics and after-school programs are probably some of the best thing schools can spend their money on (apart from good teachers). I agree maybe they get in the way of studies when students are forced to attend pep-rallies or something similar but that is just bad school administration and needs to be dealt with on an individual school level. Apart from all the soft skills that are tough to test for like leadership, organizational skills, and work ethic, sports have a tangible effect on grades; that is they improve them. I would cite studies but there are literally too many to cite. Just google "athlete gpa vs non athlete" or something similar and there won't be one link suggesting that non-athletes get better grades (on average). Athletics are also a path to a better college and give kids constructive outlets for their time and energy. Yes they happen to be pretty expensive but are totally worth it IMO because, guess what? I don't want to be like some other countries that keep their kids' noses to the grindstone all day to prep them for "a test of critical thinking in math". We should really be teaching our kids how to do their taxes, change a tire and interpret medical test results and not how to take tests.

nitrogen 13y ago
Athletes get better grades in high school because they are encouraged by GPA requirements to take easier classes, and because teachers are pressured to inflate athletes' grades to keep them playing. Local sports can be good; I played soccer in a non-school league. School-sponsored teams only divide students and create perverse incentives.
- skizm 13y ago
  That is total speculation and I would guess totally false since standardized testing scores are higher for athletes also.
  - Retric 13y ago
    Athletes are by definition reasonably healthy and healthy people are as a rule both more intelligent and do better at work / school than non healthy people. Further, athletes are required to have a minimum GPA which has both a positive and dramatic impact on testing scores. AKA compare everyone with everyone with a 2.0+ GPA and you will see a positive correlation. PS: You can correct for these factors, but it's far less common than you might think to do so as correlations are published more often than null results.

Datsundere 13y ago

They should've stopped spending money on sports instead of firing teachers during the recession (recession being a relative term).

antoko 13y ago
Recession is never a relative term, it has a specific meaning, 2 or more consecutive quarters of negative economic growth as measured by real GDP. Hmm apparently I'm not nearly on as solid ground as I thought with regard to this. I've been in the States for 11 years and apparently still have a UK/Euro bias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession#Definition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession#Definition In the United States, the Business Cycle Dating Committee of the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER) is generally seen as the authority for dating US recessions. The NBER defines an economic recession as: "a significant decline in economic activity spread across the economy, lasting more than a few months, normally visible in real GDP, real income, employment, industrial production, and wholesale-retail sales."[5] Almost universally, academics, economists, policy makers, and businesses defer to the determination by the NBER for the precise dating of a recession's onset and end. In the United Kingdom, recessions are generally defined as two consecutive quarters of negative economic growth, as measured by the seasonal adjusted quarter-on-quarter figures for real GDP.[6][7] The exact same recession definition apply for all member states of the European Union.

protomyth 13y ago

Sports, with the right attitude, are a good thing. They teach you about winning and losing, instill a bit of discipline, and provide some fun. I find a lot of arguments about sports to come down to not everyone enjoys or participates in sports. I find that a dangerous way to think since that could just as easily lead to the cancellation of other programs. For a lot of kids, sports and the academic requirements to participate in sports are the only thing keeping them interested in school.

ameister14 13y ago

I coached sports in a very blue collar town, and I know several of the students had no positive male role models, no structure provided for them at home, and no incentive to perform academically. Then they joined our team, and suddenly they had people willing to help them, a bond with other students they hadnt possessed before, and a structure they needed. They had to pass their classes now because they wanted to play, and we taught them to be more respectful of their teachers and administrators. These kids went from being trouble at the school to just normal kids. That is because of sports and nothing else. Could they have afforded to play on a team not affiliated with the school? Probably not.

gz5 13y ago

I think most of us subscribe to the benefits of sports (and other extra-curricular activities). That said, how about the professional leagues sending money back into school budgets (x% of ticket sales)? They also benefit from HS sports... Certainly money is not the only answer to the overall education problems raised in the article - but it could be part of the solution - and I think we want to find sources that don't potentially rob Peter to pay Paul, or have significant intended and unintended consequences and ripple effects.

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

I find sports emphasis far less troubling than the author's focus on standardized test scores.

geebee 13y ago

I'm always a little sad to see a case made against sports, since I do think that participation in sports can be an exceptionally positive force in a young (or old!) person's life - when the culture of sports emphasizes honest competition and respect for your opponent. It's about wanting to win but realizing that winning isn't the goal at all. You know, when it's match point, and there's a ball that was probably out, but you didn't see it clearly, and you know the rules - if you can't make the call, the point and match goes to your opponent. Go shake hands with your head held high. It doesn't matter if you're a crappy tennis player or a great one. You played hard, and you played fairly. Unfortunately, what I just described isn't really sports in America. There's no way to tell this next anecdote without admitting that I watched "The Biggest Loser", so let's just get that out of the way now. Ok. so. There was this section where an NFL player shows up to talk about how the NFL takes fitness and obesity seriously, and so, they're announcing a "fifteen thousand dollar" (well, I don't remember the exact amount) donation to help fight obesity. So, a league that makes billions off people who rarely exercise and sit on their sofa watching people play an expensive sport that probably badly harms people when played as intended and is largely inaccessible in the form played professionally (tag or flag football is a different thing, and is kind of fun in my opinion), raking in millions (billions?) in ad dollars by subjecting the non-exercising viewers to barrage of advertisements for empty calorie foods supplemented with a chemical scientists use to induce obesity in lab rats, is now going to donate 0.000001% of the budget to purchase some unused exercise equipment to help fight obesity. Ok, I'm not sure it goes exactly like that, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't go exactly unlike that. And here's one more problem - I really like college football. I just hate what it has become. There may be a middle ground here. http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/04/22/should-colleges-get-rid-of-competitive-sports/division-iii-sports-are-good-for-campus-health http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/04/22/should-colle... And supposedly (according to the NYTimes) watching pro tennis players does improve the games of amateurs, so maybe there's some benefits to watching instead of just playing. At least, that's what I'll tell myself for now...

vinceguidry 13y ago

I didn't read the article. The entire idea is a non-starter. Killing high school sports will kill the entire professional sports industry. Professional athletes have been getting better and better and the reason is that kids are starting younger and younger, programs get better and better. Professional sports depends on this in the same way that market investing depends on growth. Without it, the whole scheme falls apart. Try to do this and you'll invoke the wrath of the most powerful entertainment sector on the planet. They will shut you down faster than the Falcons get owned at the playoffs.

mp01 13y ago

Too many people here seem to be missing the point of the article. The title is "The Case Against High-School Sports" not "The Case Against Sports". The argument is whether an academic institution should be spending so much of its (potentially tight) budget on athletics and whether it should be glorifying athletic accomplishments so much more than it does academic accomplishments. I've played sports, both in-school and out-of-school, almost my entire life and I love sports as much as anyone else, and I think the article makes a valid argument. Sports are great and kids can learn a lot from them, but I don't think school-affiliated sports over many benefits over club-affiliated sports, and even if they did, I question whether those benefits outweigh the costs of schools putting so many resources into them. edit: I was missing a word

bhewes 13y ago

I played HS Baseball in Oklahoma. One year we lost to Jenks in the state finals. Only thing I wish, is I was better. HS baseball was my outlet from the physical prison that is modern suburbia. Now my outlet is weight lifting and sparing, and I probably spend 20 hours a week on 'worthless' physical activity. Just because the author wants to live in her head all the time does not mean the rest of us do.

migrantgeek 13y ago

I've started seeing a massage therapist for my back and when they gave me a tour of the office they showed me a shrine of the local high school football team with autographed pictures, helmets, etc. The kid giving me the tour was proud to announce "we take care of the high school football team!". I looked it up after and it turns out the school pays for these kids to get massages so they play better football. I pay nearly 700 a month to the ISD in taxes because I own a home. It hurts me to know that some of that pays for a teenager to get a massage before each big game. I realize I am in Texas but it's still maddening that this goes on.

tzs 13y ago

> Even in eighth grade, American kids spend more than twice the time Korean kids spend playing sports, according to a 2010 study published in the Journal of Advanced Academics Of course American kids spend more time on sports. They don't have super fast internet and live in a country where Starcraft players can get corporate sponsorship and make a living playing the game. Did the study take this into account?