4 ms·

So specifically, I'd be interested in hearing something from an expert C++ programmer I don't know what qualifies as an expert, but as someone who is using C++

So specifically, I'd be interested in hearing something from an expert C++ programmer I don't know what qualifies as an expert, but as someone who is using C++ and Java (and did look at Go): - If I want a garbage collected language that is reasonably fast and safe, I prefer Java over Go, since there are many high-quality libraries available, there are good IDEs, it's easy to instrument the JVM (heck, I can even debug a remote application running in Tomcat in my IDE), and has a good central repository and package manger (JVM). Go is hardly more expressive than Java, so if I am looking for a replacement, it will probably be Kotlin or Scala. - There are applications where I want manual memory management, auto-vectorization, real generics (templates), etc. Go has none of these features. In other words: Go does not offer me any advantages over Java or C++. At the same time, moving from Java to Go would require me to sacrifice a lot of well-developed and reliable tools and libraries. I know that someone is going to mention Goroutines and channels. There are great concurrency options for Java as well, e.g. Akka, which implements actors, futures, a scheduler, remoting, and clustering. In comparison Go's concurrency offering is quite pale. Sure, you could implement something like Akka on top of Go, but it currently does not exist (except for a binding against Erlang's C node functionality).

jawr 13y ago
The problem that I find with Java is that it forces you to write code in a certain way; OO programming seems to have become the de facto way of dealing with large problems, especially in enterprise and sometimes I think far too much time is given to design patterns (that do work in a /lot/ of cases) and how they can be shoe horned into the program you are making. Java does have some amazing features, libraries, etc. It also has a lot of security flaws (afaik). Also, IDE's really do not interest me in the slightest. Writing in Go isn't as strict or structured as Java which I really enjoy. I used to write a lot of C++ and although I was never a pro, I did really used to enjoy programming in it. Go is certainly a breath of fresh air to develop in in comparison and I find that I can write more concisely and if anything performance seems to improve as I am not making trivial mistakes that "powerful" languages like C++ allow me to repeatedly make. KISS. As always, it's horses for courses.
- lmm 13y ago
  Java is deliberately simplistic because it prioritizes code maintainability (even by mediocre programmers), but I thought that was the same philosophy as go (e.g. limited type system). And I don't know what you're talking about wrt security. Have you tried a modern, expressive, strongly typed functional language like Scala or Haskell? I can well believe that go would be an improvement over Java, but Java's not exactly state of the art these days.
  - jawr 13y ago
    I'm not sure I would call Java simplistic.. It seems incredibly bloated to me especially in comparison to Go and other languages. With regards to security issues, I was under the impression that since oracle took it over, Java has had prevalent issues that have just been ignored by Oracle. Quick search seems to agree.. I have played with Haskell and really enjoyed the language. Although imperative languages are my bread and butter it certainly gave me a different approach to programming, primarily stepping away from an OO design and love of recursion!
    - lmm 13y ago
      You're probably thinking of security issues with the browser plugin? They're... unfortunate, but don't affect the language as it's actually used. Don't write java applets, and as a user, don't install the browser plugin.
      - Agathos 13y ago
        Indeed. Java in a sandbox in the browser is pretty much a failure. But there is no Go browser sandbox at all, so I'd hardly say Go is better off here. I guess you look better when you don't make the attempt at all.
    - cytzol 13y ago
      I would call Java simplistic, but for a funny reason: with other languages, you can do things the straightforward way using basic constructs, or you can do things the expert way using a variety of more complex (sometimes user-defined) constructs. With Java, you have to do things the simple way. Sure, you have to define a class with a main method in it instead of just being able to print "Hello World", but there's one less way to do that in Java than in scripting languages. Haskell is a lovely language and everyone should dabble in it for a while, for that very reason: because it makes you look at programming differently.

jawr 13y ago

The problem that I find with Java is that it forces you to write code in a certain way; OO programming seems to have become the de facto way of dealing with large problems, especially in enterprise and sometimes I think far too much time is given to design patterns (that do work in a /lot/ of cases) and how they can be shoe horned into the program you are making. Java does have some amazing features, libraries, etc. It also has a lot of security flaws (afaik). Also, IDE's really do not interest me in the slightest. Writing in Go isn't as strict or structured as Java which I really enjoy. I used to write a lot of C++ and although I was never a pro, I did really used to enjoy programming in it. Go is certainly a breath of fresh air to develop in in comparison and I find that I can write more concisely and if anything performance seems to improve as I am not making trivial mistakes that "powerful" languages like C++ allow me to repeatedly make. KISS. As always, it's horses for courses.

lmm 13y ago
Java is deliberately simplistic because it prioritizes code maintainability (even by mediocre programmers), but I thought that was the same philosophy as go (e.g. limited type system). And I don't know what you're talking about wrt security. Have you tried a modern, expressive, strongly typed functional language like Scala or Haskell? I can well believe that go would be an improvement over Java, but Java's not exactly state of the art these days.
- jawr 13y ago
  I'm not sure I would call Java simplistic.. It seems incredibly bloated to me especially in comparison to Go and other languages. With regards to security issues, I was under the impression that since oracle took it over, Java has had prevalent issues that have just been ignored by Oracle. Quick search seems to agree.. I have played with Haskell and really enjoyed the language. Although imperative languages are my bread and butter it certainly gave me a different approach to programming, primarily stepping away from an OO design and love of recursion!
  - lmm 13y ago
    You're probably thinking of security issues with the browser plugin? They're... unfortunate, but don't affect the language as it's actually used. Don't write java applets, and as a user, don't install the browser plugin.
    - Agathos 13y ago
      Indeed. Java in a sandbox in the browser is pretty much a failure. But there is no Go browser sandbox at all, so I'd hardly say Go is better off here. I guess you look better when you don't make the attempt at all.
  - cytzol 13y ago
    I would call Java simplistic, but for a funny reason: with other languages, you can do things the straightforward way using basic constructs, or you can do things the expert way using a variety of more complex (sometimes user-defined) constructs. With Java, you have to do things the simple way. Sure, you have to define a class with a main method in it instead of just being able to print "Hello World", but there's one less way to do that in Java than in scripting languages. Haskell is a lovely language and everyone should dabble in it for a while, for that very reason: because it makes you look at programming differently.