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That's exactly my experience. I occasionally watch big tournaments and a couple of years ago decided to have a go myself. When I was growing up I played a lot o

That's exactly my experience. I occasionally watch big tournaments and a couple of years ago decided to have a go myself. When I was growing up I played a lot of Westwood RTS games so I thought I'd be able to get to a level of basic competency fairly quickly. I was completely wrong. That game is killer, stressful and mentally exhausting (for me). It became clear to me that either I could make SC2 my full-time pursuit and become passably decent in perhaps a couple of months, or I could stop playing. I chose the latter. People who make an earnest effort to improve often talk about "ladder anxiety" - the fear of playing ranked games. I didn't understand it at all before trying to play, but I do now - it's a complex fear that combines fear of letting yourself down with fear of being embarrassed in front of a peer and fear of losing some of the rank you've been diligently working up. I can completely understand how it's a rewarding, challenging pursuit for some people, but for me it draws from the same pool of focus, willpower and determination I use to get actual work down. I'd rather play a twitchy FPS in my downtime that, for me, draws from a different source.

aspensmonster 13y ago
That's the type of experience that is a big turn off for me in games as well. People spend so much time studying the mechanics and economics of the game that eventually, pretty much every match plays out in exactly the same form. For RTS games, the build trees often get set in stone. Deviate from the one feasible tree and you might as well just be giving up because after a few minutes your opponent has just enough units to wipe you (and, since you didn't follow the build tree, you won't be able to counter it in time). For team FPS games, if your team gets good enough, the first few kills almost always determine the winner of the match, because whoever wins the first wave controls map flow. They control weapon drops, ammo drops, and they probably have the spawn points and probabilities memorized too. I suppose there is a certain mathematical attraction in pushing a game to its limits like that. But I've never been able to actually enjoy playing that way.
- DominikR 13y ago
  There are hundreds of builds you could go that work in certain situations. And then there are builds that usually don't work in a situation, but some people can use it because of their superior micromanagement or macro. What you probably mean is the metagame - that definitely exists and constantly changes, but in a best of 3/5/7 setup you'll usually see players use multiple builds, either as a reaction to the build the opponent used in the last game, or due to the map you are playing on and sometimes just to try catching the opponent off guard by doing something unexpected
- nickik 13y ago
  You could say that for every sport. If anything your avg. Star Craft game is suprising more often then your avg. football or whatever game. So often you see players doing something strang, and quite often, if you look at Star Craft 1, one change in startagy by one person has huge impact on that matchup. So your avg. match changes a lot, end even if you are in a time where games play out simularly quite often, good players use that and trie to win doing something diffrent.
- lgieron 13y ago
  I wholeheartedly recommend tournament-level magic:the gathering (available online as magic online). The game has mind-blowing depth while not being a clickfest. It's similar to deep board games like chess and go, but the random element and the variability introduced by thousands of available cards make it much more fun IMO. The drawback I guess is that it can be pretty expensive, but the price is justified by unmatched quality of the gameplay. Plus, if you're good, it doesn't cost anything (you're actually making some money while playing).
- giblaz 13y ago
  I usually don't log in, but your post had some common noob misconceptions about Starcraft and I wanted to clear them up before people take them as fact. >People spend so much time studying the mechanics and economics of the game that eventually, pretty much every match plays out in exactly the same form. Maybe on ladder, but in a tournament you will never see the same Best of 3 on a map... ever. That's the beauty of a tournament setting - the players are mostly playing each other and trying to metagame one another. On ladder, that's a problem that is solved by new maps in the map pool. Yes, maps get learned and then players will learn if pressure builds or fast expoing are strong on the map, but even then players can metagame their opponent on those maps (like going for a super early all-in on a map that favors macro play). SCOUTING IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT SKILL IN THE GAME. Players with phenomenal mechanics like ForGG & MarineKingPrime lose professional games constantly because of their bad scouting, on the same maps, vs the same opponents, because their opponent is doing strategies to counter what they usually do. It doesn't play out the same, ever. (although MKP needs to stop going CC first on the low ground and losing :) ) >Deviate from the one feasible tree and you might as well just be giving up because after a few minutes your opponent has just enough units to wipe you (and, since you didn't follow the build tree, you won't be able to counter it in time). Starcraft 2 has harder counters than SC:BW did, but SC2 still has maintained the beautiful quality that SCBW did in that you can counter any strategy with a number of options, and each has their benefits and disadvantages to you as the game progresses. It's a commonly stated and completely wrong opinion that the game is so figured out that there are exact responses you must do in certain situations. When you're lower league (Bronze to Diamond) it will help to play more robotically, but as you get better you must be willing to throw your opponent off and respond to what they're doing unexpectedly. It benefits you to have the "knowledge" advantage in that game, unsurprisingly. I'd like to mention that I've been Masters 8 seasons in a row, so this post comes from someone who has invested a lot of time into the game. Hopefully I didn't come off as too much of an ass but given how complex the game TRULY is, when people try to simplify it and then paint the game negatively for that simplified aspect... well I can't be having that. =]
sireat 13y ago
I have had a very similar experience as well. I've enjoyed watching high level SC2 in GSL for some 3 years and often get the urge to try playing myself but am forced to remind myself how horrible my mechanics are and that no amount of deliberate practice would fix that. I enjoy and have a reasonable handle on the strategic side and could handle keyboard as a decent typist but the ability to handle the mouse with such focus is something that I am simply unable to do. Let's not even mention that I am almost 40. Instead, I settle for some quick games of chess something that I can do reasonably well as a master and which does not require 100+ APM (even in 1minute chess).
- jules 13y ago
  You should check out the game Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance. It's currently a community driven game, and you can download the multiplayer client at http://www.faforever.com/ http://www.faforever.com/ In this game strategy is much more important than APM. Some of the top players have less than 60 APM, whereas in Starcraft they have 300. Some of this is due to the community being smaller hence the overall competitiveness being lower, but it's also the nature of the game. The interface is optimized for letting you do as much as possible in a few clicks, unlike Starcraft where you have to micromanage everything. In a way Supreme Commander is like continuous time chess. You win by wit rather than who clicks faster. Like chess you have a king that you need to protect and to win you have to kill the enemy's king. Here is a video commentary of a (very long) 4v4 game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg_z-pIcUJo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg_z-pIcUJo
kybernetyk 13y ago
> I chose the latter. The same for me. I love watching SC2 games - but playing myself? Nah, I'm a sucker even at bronze levels. The time investment (and the stress) needed to get even remotely competitive in the bronze ladders is just too much for me.
- Zariel 13y ago
  Its not really much different to other hobbies if your efficient at learning and improving. If you play a few games and then just stop then you wont improve much at all. But if you go back and analyse your play and your decisions at each point in the game you can quickly improve. And most parts of SC2 can be broken down into small parts which can be practiced with repetition, for instance practicing your build order for the first 3 minutes so you can do it without thinking if a huge benefit. Ive found it not much different to learning guitar to be honest, or any other competitive game like Dota.
  - GFischer 13y ago
    Team games like Dota or League of Legends add another problem: I wouldn't worry that much if I get trashed individually, but when you're a part of a (randomly selected) team and you drag them down, I really get stressed. I worry to the point I haven't played a ranked game yet(I play LOL) , even though I reached Level 30 months ago. I'm sure there are some groups of casual players that don't mind having a mediocre player (to play in matchmade groups), but I haven't found them yet.
    - Zariel 13y ago
      I started playing MOBA games with Dota2 with some friends who had already played LoL and HoN so I was the new guy in a group of 4 so I got carried a fair ammoutn but now I dont care about playing in single matches if someone whines at me for being bad or what ever i just mute them get on with life. I've also made a few friends who I play with now and then.
j2kun 13y ago
Ladder anxiety wouldn't be so bad if the SC community weren't so rude. Can't imagine how many times I've played a game really hard, thought it was super close, and have the opponent say "zzz" or "you suck uninstall."

aspensmonster 13y ago

That's the type of experience that is a big turn off for me in games as well. People spend so much time studying the mechanics and economics of the game that eventually, pretty much every match plays out in exactly the same form. For RTS games, the build trees often get set in stone. Deviate from the one feasible tree and you might as well just be giving up because after a few minutes your opponent has just enough units to wipe you (and, since you didn't follow the build tree, you won't be able to counter it in time). For team FPS games, if your team gets good enough, the first few kills almost always determine the winner of the match, because whoever wins the first wave controls map flow. They control weapon drops, ammo drops, and they probably have the spawn points and probabilities memorized too. I suppose there is a certain mathematical attraction in pushing a game to its limits like that. But I've never been able to actually enjoy playing that way.

DominikR 13y ago
There are hundreds of builds you could go that work in certain situations. And then there are builds that usually don't work in a situation, but some people can use it because of their superior micromanagement or macro. What you probably mean is the metagame - that definitely exists and constantly changes, but in a best of 3/5/7 setup you'll usually see players use multiple builds, either as a reaction to the build the opponent used in the last game, or due to the map you are playing on and sometimes just to try catching the opponent off guard by doing something unexpected
nickik 13y ago
You could say that for every sport. If anything your avg. Star Craft game is suprising more often then your avg. football or whatever game. So often you see players doing something strang, and quite often, if you look at Star Craft 1, one change in startagy by one person has huge impact on that matchup. So your avg. match changes a lot, end even if you are in a time where games play out simularly quite often, good players use that and trie to win doing something diffrent.
lgieron 13y ago
I wholeheartedly recommend tournament-level magic:the gathering (available online as magic online). The game has mind-blowing depth while not being a clickfest. It's similar to deep board games like chess and go, but the random element and the variability introduced by thousands of available cards make it much more fun IMO. The drawback I guess is that it can be pretty expensive, but the price is justified by unmatched quality of the gameplay. Plus, if you're good, it doesn't cost anything (you're actually making some money while playing).
giblaz 13y ago
I usually don't log in, but your post had some common noob misconceptions about Starcraft and I wanted to clear them up before people take them as fact. >People spend so much time studying the mechanics and economics of the game that eventually, pretty much every match plays out in exactly the same form. Maybe on ladder, but in a tournament you will never see the same Best of 3 on a map... ever. That's the beauty of a tournament setting - the players are mostly playing each other and trying to metagame one another. On ladder, that's a problem that is solved by new maps in the map pool. Yes, maps get learned and then players will learn if pressure builds or fast expoing are strong on the map, but even then players can metagame their opponent on those maps (like going for a super early all-in on a map that favors macro play). SCOUTING IS THE SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT SKILL IN THE GAME. Players with phenomenal mechanics like ForGG & MarineKingPrime lose professional games constantly because of their bad scouting, on the same maps, vs the same opponents, because their opponent is doing strategies to counter what they usually do. It doesn't play out the same, ever. (although MKP needs to stop going CC first on the low ground and losing :) ) >Deviate from the one feasible tree and you might as well just be giving up because after a few minutes your opponent has just enough units to wipe you (and, since you didn't follow the build tree, you won't be able to counter it in time). Starcraft 2 has harder counters than SC:BW did, but SC2 still has maintained the beautiful quality that SCBW did in that you can counter any strategy with a number of options, and each has their benefits and disadvantages to you as the game progresses. It's a commonly stated and completely wrong opinion that the game is so figured out that there are exact responses you must do in certain situations. When you're lower league (Bronze to Diamond) it will help to play more robotically, but as you get better you must be willing to throw your opponent off and respond to what they're doing unexpectedly. It benefits you to have the "knowledge" advantage in that game, unsurprisingly. I'd like to mention that I've been Masters 8 seasons in a row, so this post comes from someone who has invested a lot of time into the game. Hopefully I didn't come off as too much of an ass but given how complex the game TRULY is, when people try to simplify it and then paint the game negatively for that simplified aspect... well I can't be having that. =]

sireat 13y ago

I have had a very similar experience as well. I've enjoyed watching high level SC2 in GSL for some 3 years and often get the urge to try playing myself but am forced to remind myself how horrible my mechanics are and that no amount of deliberate practice would fix that. I enjoy and have a reasonable handle on the strategic side and could handle keyboard as a decent typist but the ability to handle the mouse with such focus is something that I am simply unable to do. Let's not even mention that I am almost 40. Instead, I settle for some quick games of chess something that I can do reasonably well as a master and which does not require 100+ APM (even in 1minute chess).

jules 13y ago
You should check out the game Supreme Commander: Forged Alliance. It's currently a community driven game, and you can download the multiplayer client at http://www.faforever.com/ http://www.faforever.com/ In this game strategy is much more important than APM. Some of the top players have less than 60 APM, whereas in Starcraft they have 300. Some of this is due to the community being smaller hence the overall competitiveness being lower, but it's also the nature of the game. The interface is optimized for letting you do as much as possible in a few clicks, unlike Starcraft where you have to micromanage everything. In a way Supreme Commander is like continuous time chess. You win by wit rather than who clicks faster. Like chess you have a king that you need to protect and to win you have to kill the enemy's king. Here is a video commentary of a (very long) 4v4 game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg_z-pIcUJo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qg_z-pIcUJo

kybernetyk 13y ago

> I chose the latter. The same for me. I love watching SC2 games - but playing myself? Nah, I'm a sucker even at bronze levels. The time investment (and the stress) needed to get even remotely competitive in the bronze ladders is just too much for me.

Zariel 13y ago
Its not really much different to other hobbies if your efficient at learning and improving. If you play a few games and then just stop then you wont improve much at all. But if you go back and analyse your play and your decisions at each point in the game you can quickly improve. And most parts of SC2 can be broken down into small parts which can be practiced with repetition, for instance practicing your build order for the first 3 minutes so you can do it without thinking if a huge benefit. Ive found it not much different to learning guitar to be honest, or any other competitive game like Dota.
- GFischer 13y ago
  Team games like Dota or League of Legends add another problem: I wouldn't worry that much if I get trashed individually, but when you're a part of a (randomly selected) team and you drag them down, I really get stressed. I worry to the point I haven't played a ranked game yet(I play LOL) , even though I reached Level 30 months ago. I'm sure there are some groups of casual players that don't mind having a mediocre player (to play in matchmade groups), but I haven't found them yet.
  - Zariel 13y ago
    I started playing MOBA games with Dota2 with some friends who had already played LoL and HoN so I was the new guy in a group of 4 so I got carried a fair ammoutn but now I dont care about playing in single matches if someone whines at me for being bad or what ever i just mute them get on with life. I've also made a few friends who I play with now and then.

j2kun 13y ago

Ladder anxiety wouldn't be so bad if the SC community weren't so rude. Can't imagine how many times I've played a game really hard, thought it was super close, and have the opponent say "zzz" or "you suck uninstall."