4 ms·

Your point is correct, but it seems like a defensive stance. Rather than debating the technical facets of the article, you fall back on the ubiquity of C++ proj

Your point is correct, but it seems like a defensive stance. Rather than debating the technical facets of the article, you fall back on the ubiquity of C++ projects as an overwhelmingly positive aspect. For what it's worth, people say the same thing about PHP; how do you feel about that language? It's hard reading vitriolic attacks on things you enjoy. There was a talk given by a Rubyist on why he thought Scala sucked, and I found it very irritating (and incorrect). So, that being said, I don't want to dismiss people feeling this way when the subject is broached. It would be nice to find a way to raise these points without ruffling feathers. ...but I think it should still be talked about. Times change, we learn lessons, life moves on. In spite of this, our most-used software is written using a language that is decades old. C+ is not a mathematical theorem...there is no universal truth to it that gives it a timeless quality. It's very common in the medical profession to rapidly change treatment methods - although a majority of the underlying knowledge is static, the actual techniques and tools change as better ones are discovered. In the realm of programming, can't we at least have the discussion? I'm not advocating totalitarian FP. What I would love is for people to just take some of the biggest lessons learned and apply them. Hell, if I could just get immutability by default (we all know untamed mutability is dangerous), no untyped null (Hoare's billion-dollar mistake), and truly useful first-class functions (with everything that implies), I'd say that's enough to mollify me for the present. Thinking way, way, way forward, I would like to see people really studying and rethinking programming in general. Just because this is how we are doing this now doesn't mean it's the best way. "Normality" is sort of an accident - I'd love to see a more studied approach.

chetanahuja 13y ago
The point I was making (somewhat sarcastically) is that the claims of deficiencies in C/C++ family of languages, such as they are, are way overblown. There are lots of problems with the model of course. The author is not the first person to express his utter dismay at the inelegance and crudeness (as they see it) of this model and won't be the last. They have seen the light. How can the others be so blind etc. Meanwhile in the real world, every single computing device, billions of them, are working non-stop, days and weeks and months on end, on a foundation of millions and millions of lines of imperative code (mostly a combination of C/C++/java/ObjectiveC ). If this programming model was so horribly broken, so inadequate, so crude, how could mere humans have created such an enormously complex technological edifice on top of such shaky foundations?
- fetbaffe 13y ago
  "every single computing device, billions of them, are working non-stop, days and weeks and months on end" working non-stop? No, they don't. Today’s computers are filled with bugs because bad implementations that comes from bad implementation languages and bad tooling. The reason C++ is used is because backwards compability/legacy/history trumps everything else. Just look at MS Windows for a proof for that. Or x86 CPU architecture.
  - chetanahuja 13y ago
    working non-stop? No, they don't. Those are claims that go against my personal experience (pretty much every device and server system I control has uptime in weeks or months). So unless you can actually show me some hard data to the contrary...
    - fetbaffe 13y ago
      Are you claiming that there are never any crashes or downtime in any device?
      - chetanahuja 13y ago
        Sigh. No. Where did I say "never crashes" ? You on the other hand seem to be implying that a different programming model will result in a never crashing system at the scale of the current internet.
        fetbaffe 13y ago
        You claimed non-stop without any facts or anything. I'm saying that we could have way fewer bugs and crashes with better languages and tooling.
        hepek 13y ago
        Erlang crowd seems to `put their money where their mouth is` regarding this question.
fhd2 13y ago
> Rather than debating the technical facets of the article, you fall back on the ubiquity of C++ projects as an overwhelmingly positive aspect. For what it's worth, people say the same thing about PHP; how do you feel about that language? As Stroustrup fittingly said: "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." How can you know the downsides and warts of something you haven't used in a wide range of applications? Are you honestly saying there won't be any? Granted, an old, proven language will have far more warts than a fresh one that's still idealistic. Fixing old warts introduces new ones etc. But I don't believe in the one true language.
- chrisdone 13y ago
  > "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." He said that because his language gets an inordinate amount of complaints.
mtdewcmu 13y ago
> For what it's worth, people say the same thing about PHP; how do you feel about that language? I actually love how relaxed and non-pointy-headed PHP feels. They seem to have backed off and tried to remake the language as OOP now, which is sad.

chetanahuja 13y ago

The point I was making (somewhat sarcastically) is that the claims of deficiencies in C/C++ family of languages, such as they are, are way overblown. There are lots of problems with the model of course. The author is not the first person to express his utter dismay at the inelegance and crudeness (as they see it) of this model and won't be the last. They have seen the light. How can the others be so blind etc. Meanwhile in the real world, every single computing device, billions of them, are working non-stop, days and weeks and months on end, on a foundation of millions and millions of lines of imperative code (mostly a combination of C/C++/java/ObjectiveC ). If this programming model was so horribly broken, so inadequate, so crude, how could mere humans have created such an enormously complex technological edifice on top of such shaky foundations?

fetbaffe 13y ago
"every single computing device, billions of them, are working non-stop, days and weeks and months on end" working non-stop? No, they don't. Today’s computers are filled with bugs because bad implementations that comes from bad implementation languages and bad tooling. The reason C++ is used is because backwards compability/legacy/history trumps everything else. Just look at MS Windows for a proof for that. Or x86 CPU architecture.
- chetanahuja 13y ago
  working non-stop? No, they don't. Those are claims that go against my personal experience (pretty much every device and server system I control has uptime in weeks or months). So unless you can actually show me some hard data to the contrary...
  - fetbaffe 13y ago
    Are you claiming that there are never any crashes or downtime in any device?
    - chetanahuja 13y ago
      Sigh. No. Where did I say "never crashes" ? You on the other hand seem to be implying that a different programming model will result in a never crashing system at the scale of the current internet.
      - fetbaffe 13y ago
        You claimed non-stop without any facts or anything. I'm saying that we could have way fewer bugs and crashes with better languages and tooling.
      - hepek 13y ago
        Erlang crowd seems to `put their money where their mouth is` regarding this question.

fhd2 13y ago

> Rather than debating the technical facets of the article, you fall back on the ubiquity of C++ projects as an overwhelmingly positive aspect. For what it's worth, people say the same thing about PHP; how do you feel about that language? As Stroustrup fittingly said: "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." How can you know the downsides and warts of something you haven't used in a wide range of applications? Are you honestly saying there won't be any? Granted, an old, proven language will have far more warts than a fresh one that's still idealistic. Fixing old warts introduces new ones etc. But I don't believe in the one true language.

chrisdone 13y ago
> "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses." He said that because his language gets an inordinate amount of complaints.

mtdewcmu 13y ago

> For what it's worth, people say the same thing about PHP; how do you feel about that language? I actually love how relaxed and non-pointy-headed PHP feels. They seem to have backed off and tried to remake the language as OOP now, which is sad.