6 ms·

If this is true, why we continue to allow helium to be used for something as frivolous as party balloons baffles me. Clearly the true market price of helium is

If this is true, why we continue to allow helium to be used for something as frivolous as party balloons baffles me. Clearly the true market price of helium is not being charged? Or is the reality of 'peak helium', and the availability of new sources, harder to understand? (e.g. here in Australia we have significant natural/coal seam gas resources, presumably an 'abundant' source of helium?) Also, if helium is the most abundant element in the universe, is there a practical, economical way to harvest this from space; I'm envisioning some sort of solar-sail powered scoop sucking up helium for return to earth in a heat-shielded flask parachuted into the oceans.

freyrs3 13y ago
It's rather alarming that the only reason helium balloons are so common is that it is being sold at prices that don't reflect it’s scarcity due to government subsidies.
MAGZine 13y ago
Hydrogen is the Universe's most abundant element. Helium is a product of Hydrogen that has undergone fusion. We'll be able to manufacture Helium when Nuclear Fusion becomes a reality on Earth.
- jerf 13y ago
  I've pondered that before and realized it could be problematic, so hurray, you've finally prompted me to run the numbers. A fusion reaction that starts from 4 hydrogen atoms (with no neutrons) produces one atom of helium. Let's just ignore the fact that this is a very hard reaction to do, even by fusion standards, and let's just ignore how the energy comes out and deal with raw amounts. Let's produce 1 mole of helium, which according to Wolfram Alpha, is .025 cubic meters of helium at standard temperature and pressure [1]. To produce that mole of helium, we need 4 moles of hydrogen. According to Wikipedia [2], 4 atoms of hydrogen combine to produce 26.7 MeV of energy. So the production of that 0.025 cubic meters of helium produces 26.7 MeV times Avogadro's Number of energy, which Google [3] conveniently converts to Joules for us without asking: 2.6 × 10e12 joules. Wikipedia [4] says annual hydrogen consumption was 15 million kilograms per year in 2000. Let's roll with that, because whynot. Helium's atomic mass is 4.003, let's just call it 4, so the number we just ran in Joules was for 4 grams. So we have to multiple that Joule count by 3,750,000,000, yielding 9.75 × 10e22Joules of excess energy to produce the world's helium use for 2000. Human energy consumption in 2000 (because why not stay consistent) was 117.687 petawatthours, which is 4.23 × 10e20 joules. So, to produce the amount of helium we used in 2000, if I've got all my numbers correct (and it's been a while, but the tools I'm using here handle units automatically so that's a plus for my chances of being right), would produce as a byproduct approximately ~230 times the amount of energy humans consumed in that year. That's actually enough energy to be a serious problem, even before we discuss the fact that it comes out as positrons and gamma rays. (And neutrinos, but that's not a problem.) In conclusion, we are not about to start producing helium from fusion, even if we could. [1]: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=volume+of+1+mole+of+helium+at+STP+in+cubic+meters http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=volume+of+1+mole+of+hel... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star#Nuclear_fusion_reaction_pathways http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star#Nuclear_fusion_reaction_pa... [3]: https://www.google.com/search?q=26.7+MeV+times+Avogadro's+number https://www.google.com/search?q=26.7+MeV+times+Avogadro's+nu... [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    we are not about to start producing helium from fusion I thought that was the whole goal of cold fusion research?
    - jerf 13y ago
      Sorry, I was not clear. We are not about to start producing commercially useful quantities of helium from fusion anytime soon. Yes, fusion may produce helium as a byproduct, but even if we could perfectly capture it, it won't be much compared to global usage for a long time. Too many positrons and gamma rays.
- fixxer 13y ago
  Till then, we can just skim it off nat gas. Thank you shale! Problem SOLVED!
mrb 13y ago
Obviously party balloons only represent a tiny fraction of worldwide helium use. And helium prices tripling do not have much influence because there is so little helium in a balloon. Nobody cares if the cost to fill up a balloon raises from $0.01 to $0.03 at wholesale prices.
- sudomal 13y ago
  It's one of those situations where people will look back and wonder why this resource was wasted, when we knew it was finite. They won't have a concept of commercial value and will find it difficult to understand that justification.
  - bcoates 13y ago
    Every resource is finite, and if the people in the distant past had attempted to preserve the things they found scarce for us we'd probably be quite unimpressed at the results.
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      It's not the simple use of a finite resource that is a head-scratcher. It is the outright short-sighted abuse of that finite resource.
  - fixxer 13y ago
    The problem isn't that the resource was wasted (we can harvest helium from nat gas). The problem is the government stayed active in the market and then mandated this bullshit disappearing act.
- jcampbell1 13y ago
  Yeah, one deep water diving session uses several hundred party balloons worth of helium per breath. Also, i can't imagine not letting kids play with something lighter than air. Helium balloons should be considered mandatory educational supplies for small children.
fluidcruft 13y ago
From what I've heard, party balloons often use nitrogen nowadays. Helium has become too expensive and the consumer won't notice the difference until a few days after the sale (if at all).
- ginko 13y ago
  Pure nitrogen basically has the same density as air (Composing 80% of it). So a party balloon filled with nitrogen wouldn't float.
  - fluidcruft 13y ago
    I'm pretty sure that's what happened. Party City had a whole sign apologizing for the switch to nitrogen about the same time we were having trouble getting dewars to refill our scanner and I talked to the owner about it so I don't think it was confusing the floating balloons with the other balloons. But you're right it makes little sense in terms of buoyancy and that hadn't occurred to me at the time. Maybe it was actually a switch to a helium/nitrogen blend. I can also see replacing helium completely for those balloons that get tied into shapes (animals etc), but that's a tiny sliver of the balloon market I'd assume.
- meepmorp 13y ago
  I've got a 2 year old, and just judging by parties I go to, nitrogen isn't being used in party balloons very much (at all?). And, hey, why not just use air?
- zik 13y ago
  "Party gas" is partly nitrogen and partly helium. Nitrogen by itself doesn't have lift.
fixxer 13y ago
Helium can be harvested from natural gas, so there isn't a shortage in absolute terms. This is a technicality of the reserve's debt structure and a shitty path towards privatization that never developed.

freyrs3 13y ago

It's rather alarming that the only reason helium balloons are so common is that it is being sold at prices that don't reflect it’s scarcity due to government subsidies.

MAGZine 13y ago

Hydrogen is the Universe's most abundant element. Helium is a product of Hydrogen that has undergone fusion. We'll be able to manufacture Helium when Nuclear Fusion becomes a reality on Earth.

jerf 13y ago
I've pondered that before and realized it could be problematic, so hurray, you've finally prompted me to run the numbers. A fusion reaction that starts from 4 hydrogen atoms (with no neutrons) produces one atom of helium. Let's just ignore the fact that this is a very hard reaction to do, even by fusion standards, and let's just ignore how the energy comes out and deal with raw amounts. Let's produce 1 mole of helium, which according to Wolfram Alpha, is .025 cubic meters of helium at standard temperature and pressure [1]. To produce that mole of helium, we need 4 moles of hydrogen. According to Wikipedia [2], 4 atoms of hydrogen combine to produce 26.7 MeV of energy. So the production of that 0.025 cubic meters of helium produces 26.7 MeV times Avogadro's Number of energy, which Google [3] conveniently converts to Joules for us without asking: 2.6 × 10e12 joules. Wikipedia [4] says annual hydrogen consumption was 15 million kilograms per year in 2000. Let's roll with that, because whynot. Helium's atomic mass is 4.003, let's just call it 4, so the number we just ran in Joules was for 4 grams. So we have to multiple that Joule count by 3,750,000,000, yielding 9.75 × 10e22Joules of excess energy to produce the world's helium use for 2000. Human energy consumption in 2000 (because why not stay consistent) was 117.687 petawatthours, which is 4.23 × 10e20 joules. So, to produce the amount of helium we used in 2000, if I've got all my numbers correct (and it's been a while, but the tools I'm using here handle units automatically so that's a plus for my chances of being right), would produce as a byproduct approximately ~230 times the amount of energy humans consumed in that year. That's actually enough energy to be a serious problem, even before we discuss the fact that it comes out as positrons and gamma rays. (And neutrinos, but that's not a problem.) In conclusion, we are not about to start producing helium from fusion, even if we could. [1]: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=volume+of+1+mole+of+helium+at+STP+in+cubic+meters http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=volume+of+1+mole+of+hel... [2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star#Nuclear_fusion_reaction_pathways http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star#Nuclear_fusion_reaction_pa... [3]: https://www.google.com/search?q=26.7+MeV+times+Avogadro's+number https://www.google.com/search?q=26.7+MeV+times+Avogadro's+nu... [4]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helium
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  we are not about to start producing helium from fusion I thought that was the whole goal of cold fusion research?
  - jerf 13y ago
    Sorry, I was not clear. We are not about to start producing commercially useful quantities of helium from fusion anytime soon. Yes, fusion may produce helium as a byproduct, but even if we could perfectly capture it, it won't be much compared to global usage for a long time. Too many positrons and gamma rays.
fixxer 13y ago
Till then, we can just skim it off nat gas. Thank you shale! Problem SOLVED!

mrb 13y ago

Obviously party balloons only represent a tiny fraction of worldwide helium use. And helium prices tripling do not have much influence because there is so little helium in a balloon. Nobody cares if the cost to fill up a balloon raises from $0.01 to $0.03 at wholesale prices.

sudomal 13y ago
It's one of those situations where people will look back and wonder why this resource was wasted, when we knew it was finite. They won't have a concept of commercial value and will find it difficult to understand that justification.
- bcoates 13y ago
  Every resource is finite, and if the people in the distant past had attempted to preserve the things they found scarce for us we'd probably be quite unimpressed at the results.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    It's not the simple use of a finite resource that is a head-scratcher. It is the outright short-sighted abuse of that finite resource.
- fixxer 13y ago
  The problem isn't that the resource was wasted (we can harvest helium from nat gas). The problem is the government stayed active in the market and then mandated this bullshit disappearing act.
jcampbell1 13y ago
Yeah, one deep water diving session uses several hundred party balloons worth of helium per breath. Also, i can't imagine not letting kids play with something lighter than air. Helium balloons should be considered mandatory educational supplies for small children.

fluidcruft 13y ago

From what I've heard, party balloons often use nitrogen nowadays. Helium has become too expensive and the consumer won't notice the difference until a few days after the sale (if at all).

ginko 13y ago
Pure nitrogen basically has the same density as air (Composing 80% of it). So a party balloon filled with nitrogen wouldn't float.
- fluidcruft 13y ago
  I'm pretty sure that's what happened. Party City had a whole sign apologizing for the switch to nitrogen about the same time we were having trouble getting dewars to refill our scanner and I talked to the owner about it so I don't think it was confusing the floating balloons with the other balloons. But you're right it makes little sense in terms of buoyancy and that hadn't occurred to me at the time. Maybe it was actually a switch to a helium/nitrogen blend. I can also see replacing helium completely for those balloons that get tied into shapes (animals etc), but that's a tiny sliver of the balloon market I'd assume.
meepmorp 13y ago
I've got a 2 year old, and just judging by parties I go to, nitrogen isn't being used in party balloons very much (at all?). And, hey, why not just use air?
zik 13y ago
"Party gas" is partly nitrogen and partly helium. Nitrogen by itself doesn't have lift.

fixxer 13y ago

Helium can be harvested from natural gas, so there isn't a shortage in absolute terms. This is a technicality of the reserve's debt structure and a shitty path towards privatization that never developed.