6 ms·

Robot Turtles Kickstarter midmortem at $250k

102 points by danshapiro 13y ago

robomartin 13y ago
> Contrary to what many people think, people don’t find new projects through Kickstarter This is a major failing of KS and one that I simply cannot understand why they don't fix. Project discovery is horrible. I am mostly interested in technology projects. One look at the projects I've supported makes this very obvious. Yet, for some unbelievable reasons I keep getting these "what's new on Kickstarter" emails promoting art projects. Sorry, I enjoy art but I have nearly zero interest in most arts projects on KS (I did back one a long time ago). This also means that I completely miss out on some projects unless I read about them elsewhere or laboriously browse through KS to try and decipher what's new. The second part is another failing. The website is not designed for easy discovery. I couldn't care less about their staff picks. They don't have enough people to cover the range of tastes and interests out there. What I want to see are tools to list projects based on various sorted criteria of my own choosing. "Popular this week" is also horrible. For example, I want to visit the site today and list technology projects in chronological order with the newest project at the top of the list. Add a layer to that and allow me to, perhaps, filter by keyword or some other criteria. Let me discover what's new on my own. Then, once I've created a search and sort criteria, let me subscribe to email updates based on that criteria. eBay does this pretty well and, therefore, promotes discovery without members having to actively spend hours browsing the site every n days in order not to miss out on bargains. There's also a missing layer when it comes to helping campaigns succeed. I've seen campaign that failed but raised a fair amount of money. Because I never learned of the project I did not have an opportunity to support it. I would imagine this is the case for thousands of people who, like me, are too busy to remember to check KS every Monday (or whatever). Their lack of discovery tools damages project owners by not allowing them to reach the entire KS addressable market for their project. Further to that, KS is also failing at connecting the dots. If someone is consistently supporting tech gizmos for photography it is likely that they'll appreciate a quick email when someone posts a new project in that domain. This would create instant traction for a lot of projects that are never discovered until it is too late. Anyhow, I enjoy Kickstarter but really can't understand why they don't seem interested in doing a better job. I know they started it more as a destination for art projects and that's what they try to promote. Well, like it or not, they make most of their money off other kinds of project --mostly technology from what I can see. Isn't it high time that they accept reality and make major site improvements in order to reflect the patterns their audience exhibits? At some level there's a huge opportunity here to do this really well by helping project originators reach an audience as well as supporters discover that which they are interested in. Do this really well and people should flock to the solution. From an entrepreneurial standpoint nothing is harder than marketing and reaching an audience. KS is squandering the data they have and forcing project originators to almost start from zero for every project, despite the massive audience KS could reach with one email.
- danshapiro 13y ago
  I wish for the same features you describe, both as a creator and backer. That said, they have a very specific vision for their company and business, and have decided not to follow the money when it points them away from that vision. Hats off to them for that.
  - robomartin 13y ago
    I wish they would clearly state their vision. If they don't want me as a backer or project creator that's fine. I simply don't understand making things so unnecessarily difficult in this day and age. From the outside it looks like they just don't care. Unlike you I don't respect this position. If they want to be about art but happen to be making their money with tech, then have the balls to focus on art and make 5% of the money they are making now (or less). That would be sticking to their vision. Instead they make money on tech and promote art, even to those who have zero interest in the segment. That's not sticking to your vision. That's hypocrisy.
  - tilsammans 13y ago
    That might be true, but their UX remains broken even for people who do support their vision. I have backed plenty of quirky, art, or dance projects and I love backing those people even for no reward. Kickstarter have all the data in my profile. It would be quite possible for them to point me at non-commercial, small-scale artists but they just don't do that. Instead the thing most close to something useful is the Popular feed from the various categories. But it takes a lot of clicking and is not very useful anyway. There are a lot of projects I would have loved to back that reached the end date without me knowing. Kickstarter are leaving money on the table, not just for them, but for the artists they host as well and that's a pity.
    - robomartin 13y ago
      > Kickstarter are leaving money on the table, not just for them, but for the artists they host as well and that's a pity. That's exactly my point. I have been working on a tech project that is currently slated to go on KS. I find myself wondering if a site like indiegogo might be a better idea. KS does not help with discovery. I don't have a huge network. I woild prefer a service that actively informs it's userbase of relevant projects based on their profile. This would have a multiplicative effect on gathering supporters. I, too, have experienced coming upon a KS project of great interest to me only to learn time had run out. Multiply this by thousands of people and you have a situation that is far less than ideal for project originators and backers alike.
danshapiro 13y ago
OP here - happy to answer any questions in the comments.
- jdludlow 13y ago
  Hi OP. What programming concepts does this game cover that aren't already handled by the 1994 game RoboRally? Or is this "RoboRally for little kids"?
  - danshapiro 13y ago
    The latter! Although by accident, since I hadn't played RR before inventing RT. RoboRally is vastly more complex and has oodles more depth. Robot Turtles is entirely pictorial and great for ages 3+.
    - mesozoic 13y ago
      That's cool RoboRally is a great game anyway so bringing it to kids is a good idea.
- hga 13y ago
  Not a question but a point: While you did everything else right (from what's enumerated in the "midmortem" to the game's rules), what put it over the top for me was the very high quality of the graphics. Especially that shot of the turtle who's delighted to achieve that red gem prize. It sets a very good tone for the game, what can be expected from it, etc.
  - danshapiro 13y ago
    Thanks hga! That's great feedback. I have very little artistic skill personally, so it's really rewarding to be able to bring this stuff to life.
- gbelote 13y ago
  Hey Dan, no question just a small gush: this is one of the best KickStarter campaigns I've seen in a while. The video is great, it's fun reading the story and seeing the extra content, and I think more toys like this should exist in the world. I don't have kids but I feel excited about it anyways - best of luck to you!
3838 13y ago
looks good, the thing i dread with higher sales is getting calculations wrong and ending up thousands in the hole, but i guess there are ways round that :)
- danshapiro 13y ago
  I spent a lot of time before launching the Kickstarter figuring out a process that would not get more expensive with volume! In short, I'm using a commercial manufacturer who can handle very large quantities, and Amazon for shipping.
  - 3838 13y ago
    how are you using Amazon for shipping? i know they fulfill for people selling via them, do they handle fulfillment for others?
    - neon_electro 13y ago
      Looks like Amazon does allow for fulfillment of orders made via other channels: http://services.amazon.com/fulfillment-by-amazon/benefits.htm http://services.amazon.com/fulfillment-by-amazon/benefits.ht...
      - 3838 13y ago
        thanks :) the only other caution i'd give anyone contemplating this regards quality control - you can't always count on the manufacturer to make sure everything is ok before they ship to amazon for instance, i'd recommend supervising the manufacturing process if you can, i met a photographer who had a large run of art books printed in the far east, he basically slept in the factory during the print run, every 2-4 hours they would wake him and he'd check the printing - it was a few days or a few weeks for the whole job 24/7 or i guess have an agreement with the printer that they will reprint and ship any defective items at their own cost.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
dnautics 13y ago
If any of the crowdtilt folks are reading this - think you could do a similar analysis for nonprofits?
tokipin 13y ago
interesting. i have an idea for a game that appears to be roughly in the same spirit, though in my case the game is intended to be 'a puzzle game' that in a sense just happens to involve basic programming. there are non-trivial and interesting ways to get across various programming things... even very arcane programming things
jerogarcia 13y ago
when i was a kid i remember playing something called Logo .. i think on C64 and it was a turtle that received instructions i don't remember well .. im sure google has some more ..but im too lazy . champion
larrys 13y ago
Calling the post a "mid mortem" is catchy and it caught my attention. But it's really more accurate to call it the less appealing "mid vita"? I have to say though that my first reaction to "mid mortem" was "failure and 250k seems contradictory, what's going on here?"
- danshapiro 13y ago
  The project will be terminated on September 27th, so I thought the name worked :-)
  - biznickman 13y ago
    I have to agree that I thought midmortem meant it was being shut down, less than a day after I interviewed you! ;) Definitely a clever use of words but mortem still feels like you were killing the project halfway through.
bazzargh 13y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6398018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6398018 My comment there... This seemed very familiar, then when I saw phrases in the Kickstarter like "You are the computer and they get to order you around", the lightbulb went on: http://drtechniko.com/2012/04/09/how-to-train-your-robot/ http://drtechniko.com/2012/04/09/how-to-train-your-robot/ ...it's a very similar game, for the same age group, except you order around people in a room instead of turtles on a board. (Not knocking Robot Turtles. There's room for both)
- danshapiro 13y ago
  This is fantastic! Same basic idea, but with physical movement and exercise. At least for the grownups.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
gghh 13y ago
Awesome game. Cannot wait I get my hand on a box and play with my 6yo nephew. Question for OP: the game introduces kids to the imperative paradigm. As somebody who's been exposed to Logo at the age of 6, I can tell I had an awesome time moving the turtle around. But: do you, Dan, think that one can build an equally compelling game based on the functional paradigm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming , where you have no "side effects" and all you can do is create and compose functions? Stated otherwise: Turing Machines seems just fine to play with. Any idea on how to make Lambda Calculus just as sexy for kids?
- nimble 13y ago
  Instructions for playing this game in functional style are included, but you need to order 25 copies of the game. More seriously: I don't think the game is too biased towards imperative style and would be useful foundation for any future language choice. Yes, it is technically imperative, but those cards don't move the turtle as side-effects. That's their primary effect. A stack of cards behaves much like a function. Similarly to how concatenative languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concatenative_programming_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concatenative_programming_langu...) are usually viewed as functional rather than as imperative stack manipulation.
- danshapiro 13y ago
  Step 1: Teach me functional languages. . . Step 3: Profit. In all seriousness, I don't think I'm qualified to teach those concepts to anyone, let alone kids. But there's some awesome discussion on robotturtles.com/community about future directions with both similar and additional rules and pieces. I bet you'd find some folks there who could help!
SamBoogie 13y ago
This post is extremely helpful and the game looks awesome, I wonder if the tactile experience of an actual board game may be more of an effective teaching aid for young children. It will be interesting to see how kids take to it when it is released. My buddies and I have a project in the same space and are considering Kickstarting too. We are building a platform game that teaches programming through gameplay by incorporating a terminal-like language we created called codePop. If your interested check it out at www.betathegame.com
- gsaines 13y ago
  Hi Sam, I've seen beta before and really like where its heading, can't wait to try it out when there is a build! We are working on another learn to code game and I'd love to chat with you about your experiences if you have the time. You can reach me a gsaines at gmail dot com. Best of luck and I look forward to hearing from you!
gknoy 13y ago
I think it was also brilliant to post this halfway through: I had forgotten all about the kickstarter, and now I am a backer.
- Shivetya 13y ago
  never heard of this kickstarter, went and grabbed an early Turtle.

102 points by danshapiro 13y ago

> Contrary to what many people think, people don’t find new projects through Kickstarter This is a major failing of KS and one that I simply cannot understand why they don't fix. Project discovery is horrible. I am mostly interested in technology projects. One look at the projects I've supported makes this very obvious. Yet, for some unbelievable reasons I keep getting these "what's new on Kickstarter" emails promoting art projects. Sorry, I enjoy art but I have nearly zero interest in most arts projects on KS (I did back one a long time ago). This also means that I completely miss out on some projects unless I read about them elsewhere or laboriously browse through KS to try and decipher what's new. The second part is another failing. The website is not designed for easy discovery. I couldn't care less about their staff picks. They don't have enough people to cover the range of tastes and interests out there. What I want to see are tools to list projects based on various sorted criteria of my own choosing. "Popular this week" is also horrible. For example, I want to visit the site today and list technology projects in chronological order with the newest project at the top of the list. Add a layer to that and allow me to, perhaps, filter by keyword or some other criteria. Let me discover what's new on my own. Then, once I've created a search and sort criteria, let me subscribe to email updates based on that criteria. eBay does this pretty well and, therefore, promotes discovery without members having to actively spend hours browsing the site every n days in order not to miss out on bargains. There's also a missing layer when it comes to helping campaigns succeed. I've seen campaign that failed but raised a fair amount of money. Because I never learned of the project I did not have an opportunity to support it. I would imagine this is the case for thousands of people who, like me, are too busy to remember to check KS every Monday (or whatever). Their lack of discovery tools damages project owners by not allowing them to reach the entire KS addressable market for their project. Further to that, KS is also failing at connecting the dots. If someone is consistently supporting tech gizmos for photography it is likely that they'll appreciate a quick email when someone posts a new project in that domain. This would create instant traction for a lot of projects that are never discovered until it is too late. Anyhow, I enjoy Kickstarter but really can't understand why they don't seem interested in doing a better job. I know they started it more as a destination for art projects and that's what they try to promote. Well, like it or not, they make most of their money off other kinds of project --mostly technology from what I can see. Isn't it high time that they accept reality and make major site improvements in order to reflect the patterns their audience exhibits? At some level there's a huge opportunity here to do this really well by helping project originators reach an audience as well as supporters discover that which they are interested in. Do this really well and people should flock to the solution. From an entrepreneurial standpoint nothing is harder than marketing and reaching an audience. KS is squandering the data they have and forcing project originators to almost start from zero for every project, despite the massive audience KS could reach with one email.

danshapiro 13y ago
I wish for the same features you describe, both as a creator and backer. That said, they have a very specific vision for their company and business, and have decided not to follow the money when it points them away from that vision. Hats off to them for that.
- robomartin 13y ago
  I wish they would clearly state their vision. If they don't want me as a backer or project creator that's fine. I simply don't understand making things so unnecessarily difficult in this day and age. From the outside it looks like they just don't care. Unlike you I don't respect this position. If they want to be about art but happen to be making their money with tech, then have the balls to focus on art and make 5% of the money they are making now (or less). That would be sticking to their vision. Instead they make money on tech and promote art, even to those who have zero interest in the segment. That's not sticking to your vision. That's hypocrisy.
- tilsammans 13y ago
  That might be true, but their UX remains broken even for people who do support their vision. I have backed plenty of quirky, art, or dance projects and I love backing those people even for no reward. Kickstarter have all the data in my profile. It would be quite possible for them to point me at non-commercial, small-scale artists but they just don't do that. Instead the thing most close to something useful is the Popular feed from the various categories. But it takes a lot of clicking and is not very useful anyway. There are a lot of projects I would have loved to back that reached the end date without me knowing. Kickstarter are leaving money on the table, not just for them, but for the artists they host as well and that's a pity.
  - robomartin 13y ago
    > Kickstarter are leaving money on the table, not just for them, but for the artists they host as well and that's a pity. That's exactly my point. I have been working on a tech project that is currently slated to go on KS. I find myself wondering if a site like indiegogo might be a better idea. KS does not help with discovery. I don't have a huge network. I woild prefer a service that actively informs it's userbase of relevant projects based on their profile. This would have a multiplicative effect on gathering supporters. I, too, have experienced coming upon a KS project of great interest to me only to learn time had run out. Multiply this by thousands of people and you have a situation that is far less than ideal for project originators and backers alike.

danshapiro 13y ago

OP here - happy to answer any questions in the comments.

jdludlow 13y ago
Hi OP. What programming concepts does this game cover that aren't already handled by the 1994 game RoboRally? Or is this "RoboRally for little kids"?
- danshapiro 13y ago
  The latter! Although by accident, since I hadn't played RR before inventing RT. RoboRally is vastly more complex and has oodles more depth. Robot Turtles is entirely pictorial and great for ages 3+.
  - mesozoic 13y ago
    That's cool RoboRally is a great game anyway so bringing it to kids is a good idea.
hga 13y ago
Not a question but a point: While you did everything else right (from what's enumerated in the "midmortem" to the game's rules), what put it over the top for me was the very high quality of the graphics. Especially that shot of the turtle who's delighted to achieve that red gem prize. It sets a very good tone for the game, what can be expected from it, etc.
- danshapiro 13y ago
  Thanks hga! That's great feedback. I have very little artistic skill personally, so it's really rewarding to be able to bring this stuff to life.
gbelote 13y ago
Hey Dan, no question just a small gush: this is one of the best KickStarter campaigns I've seen in a while. The video is great, it's fun reading the story and seeing the extra content, and I think more toys like this should exist in the world. I don't have kids but I feel excited about it anyways - best of luck to you!

3838 13y ago

looks good, the thing i dread with higher sales is getting calculations wrong and ending up thousands in the hole, but i guess there are ways round that :)

danshapiro 13y ago
I spent a lot of time before launching the Kickstarter figuring out a process that would not get more expensive with volume! In short, I'm using a commercial manufacturer who can handle very large quantities, and Amazon for shipping.
- 3838 13y ago
  how are you using Amazon for shipping? i know they fulfill for people selling via them, do they handle fulfillment for others?
  - neon_electro 13y ago
    Looks like Amazon does allow for fulfillment of orders made via other channels: http://services.amazon.com/fulfillment-by-amazon/benefits.htm http://services.amazon.com/fulfillment-by-amazon/benefits.ht...
    - 3838 13y ago
      thanks :) the only other caution i'd give anyone contemplating this regards quality control - you can't always count on the manufacturer to make sure everything is ok before they ship to amazon for instance, i'd recommend supervising the manufacturing process if you can, i met a photographer who had a large run of art books printed in the far east, he basically slept in the factory during the print run, every 2-4 hours they would wake him and he'd check the printing - it was a few days or a few weeks for the whole job 24/7 or i guess have an agreement with the printer that they will reprint and ship any defective items at their own cost.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]

dnautics 13y ago

If any of the crowdtilt folks are reading this - think you could do a similar analysis for nonprofits?

tokipin 13y ago

interesting. i have an idea for a game that appears to be roughly in the same spirit, though in my case the game is intended to be 'a puzzle game' that in a sense just happens to involve basic programming. there are non-trivial and interesting ways to get across various programming things... even very arcane programming things

jerogarcia 13y ago

when i was a kid i remember playing something called Logo .. i think on C64 and it was a turtle that received instructions i don't remember well .. im sure google has some more ..but im too lazy . champion

larrys 13y ago

Calling the post a "mid mortem" is catchy and it caught my attention. But it's really more accurate to call it the less appealing "mid vita"? I have to say though that my first reaction to "mid mortem" was "failure and 250k seems contradictory, what's going on here?"

danshapiro 13y ago
The project will be terminated on September 27th, so I thought the name worked :-)
- biznickman 13y ago
  I have to agree that I thought midmortem meant it was being shut down, less than a day after I interviewed you! ;) Definitely a clever use of words but mortem still feels like you were killing the project halfway through.

bazzargh 13y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6398018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6398018 My comment there... This seemed very familiar, then when I saw phrases in the Kickstarter like "You are the computer and they get to order you around", the lightbulb went on: http://drtechniko.com/2012/04/09/how-to-train-your-robot/ http://drtechniko.com/2012/04/09/how-to-train-your-robot/ ...it's a very similar game, for the same age group, except you order around people in a room instead of turtles on a board. (Not knocking Robot Turtles. There's room for both)

danshapiro 13y ago
This is fantastic! Same basic idea, but with physical movement and exercise. At least for the grownups.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

gghh 13y ago

Awesome game. Cannot wait I get my hand on a box and play with my 6yo nephew. Question for OP: the game introduces kids to the imperative paradigm. As somebody who's been exposed to Logo at the age of 6, I can tell I had an awesome time moving the turtle around. But: do you, Dan, think that one can build an equally compelling game based on the functional paradigm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_programming , where you have no "side effects" and all you can do is create and compose functions? Stated otherwise: Turing Machines seems just fine to play with. Any idea on how to make Lambda Calculus just as sexy for kids?

nimble 13y ago
Instructions for playing this game in functional style are included, but you need to order 25 copies of the game. More seriously: I don't think the game is too biased towards imperative style and would be useful foundation for any future language choice. Yes, it is technically imperative, but those cards don't move the turtle as side-effects. That's their primary effect. A stack of cards behaves much like a function. Similarly to how concatenative languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concatenative_programming_language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concatenative_programming_langu...) are usually viewed as functional rather than as imperative stack manipulation.
danshapiro 13y ago
Step 1: Teach me functional languages. . . Step 3: Profit. In all seriousness, I don't think I'm qualified to teach those concepts to anyone, let alone kids. But there's some awesome discussion on robotturtles.com/community about future directions with both similar and additional rules and pieces. I bet you'd find some folks there who could help!

SamBoogie 13y ago

This post is extremely helpful and the game looks awesome, I wonder if the tactile experience of an actual board game may be more of an effective teaching aid for young children. It will be interesting to see how kids take to it when it is released. My buddies and I have a project in the same space and are considering Kickstarting too. We are building a platform game that teaches programming through gameplay by incorporating a terminal-like language we created called codePop. If your interested check it out at www.betathegame.com

gsaines 13y ago
Hi Sam, I've seen beta before and really like where its heading, can't wait to try it out when there is a build! We are working on another learn to code game and I'd love to chat with you about your experiences if you have the time. You can reach me a gsaines at gmail dot com. Best of luck and I look forward to hearing from you!

gknoy 13y ago

I think it was also brilliant to post this halfway through: I had forgotten all about the kickstarter, and now I am a backer.

Shivetya 13y ago
never heard of this kickstarter, went and grabbed an early Turtle.