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My Startup Job Interview
- bliti 13y agoA guy in a shirt, a guy in a polo, and an Asian lady. Why not a lady? Not calling you racist, but it is interesting how the race of non-whites seems to be included in some manner like it is always relevant. Why not mention the race of the two other people? Is it less relevant? You only mention the lady once. What role did she play in the situation? Just curious.
- milesokeefe 13y agoYou could make the same point about OP specifying the type of shirt. It was just a detail.
- netcan 13y agoGood storytelling. One quick detail per person sends the reader on the path to creating their own imaginary picture.
- bliti 13y agoI do understand that. It is a good technique to use. But my question is: Why mention the fact that the lady was Asian, when she is not mentioned again in the story? I feel that providing the extra detail without further involving the character takes away from the story. What does the Asian lady do in the scenario? Does her being Asian somehow influence? People from some Asian countries are very polite and reserved. Did that influence the interview in some way? Its as if I wrote the following: John, Mike, and a white man sat down in my table. We all talked about our trip to Disney Land. Dinner was fine, except for the fish. It was over cooked. Mike sent it back to the kitchen, and they prepared another one. Afterwards, we went to the local arcade. Where a mean game of Galaga was played. John, as always, had the high score. I was not as lucky. The score was affected by my bad sleeping habits. Ever since starting this new job, I simply cannot fall asleep as easily as before.
- netcan 13y agoLook, this stuff is subjective and I'm barely a novice. But.. any choice of detail you make is going to have a lot of influence on how the reader sees that room. They carry their own biases and associations. I saw two 28 year old white guys, kinda of californian looking, clear "non formal workplace' subcultural affiliation. The Asian lady, I imagine as a little older, more formally dressed and not saying anything. The interviewee is a few years older than the guys, more formally dressed and generally more accustomed to a a formal work environment. If it had been 'two white guys and a tall woman' I probably would have pictured the interviewee as non white. I also imagine (because its in blog/HN comment format) the objection to singling out the asian. That makes it seem honest, because noticing that she's asian is like an admission of guilt. This story is making fun of stereotypes. Using clichés is how he's getting a particular effect.
- bliti 13y agoYou are right. I will say that I had not noticed this story being fictional. Makes me feel rather stupid. Why did I not notice? I have been in this situation many times. We often read about how perfect startups are. How nothing in Silicon Valley stinks. But life has had me participating in scenarios similar to what the OP described. Which is the point of the post itself. The path to understanding makes shreds of the ego.
- netcan 13y agonice answer
- danso 13y agoPerhaps the Asian lady was unclothed? Joking aside, it's possible that these details stuck in the OP's mind because she happened to be one of the only females and/or Asians in the group.
- gedrap 13y agoOr he didn't think about it at all, it just popped to his head and he forgot how race-sensitive some people might be.
- altero 13y agoBecause otherwise someone else would complain it is white sausage fest?
- ianstallings 13y agoI'm not calling you a racist, I'll just allude to it. Why are you saying Dave the Polo Shirt guy was not white? He didn't mention that.. Not saying you're a racist..
- Tichy 13y agoAsian ladies tend to look different from Caucasian ladies. So it evokes a different picture. I don't think racism or sexism or anything needs to be cited. Sure, you can point out that he seems to be writing from the default perspective of a white Caucasian (assuming everybody else is also a white Caucasian, unless mentioned otherwise). Is that a crime? I think not. If you are from a different background and curious about the "race" of the guys, just ask.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- MarkTanamil 13y agoIt doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong. People do this, it's a fact of life. If you live in Japan (as a white male) you will be commonly referred do as a 外国人 (foreigner) by every Japanese person. Does that mean that all Japanese are racist? No.
- DigitalJack 13y agoExactly. Why include physical descriptions at all. He should have said "three people" or even "three beings." And who cares what they were wearing? And why do we care what color the fonts were? He could have just said it was hard to read.
- ianstallings 13y ago"I had interview. 3 people were present. I typed code." That story sounds fascinating, tell me more!
- damon_c 13y ago"three beings". Hahaha. Really any more description than that and you're being something-ist!
- Tichy 13y agoWhy mention the gender, or anything? Why not just "3 people"? Was the number of people even relevant. It was a story. I don't think we want stories in general to be devoid of any ornaments at all.
- Gygash 13y agoBecause white and male are the default assumed race and gender[1]. [1]: http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/why-is-white-male-the-default/ http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/why-is-white-male...
- tedks 13y agoYou realize that your link argues against this social reality, right? >But now we have female doctors, lawyers, professors, and presidents. In fact, we have so many of them (even in heavily male-dominated areas like the physical sciences) that it’s no longer fair, or correct, to assume that the person in question is male. So how about we just collectively get over gender-stereotyping truck drivers, cardiologists, and pre-school teachers? I’m not saying we should aim to stop using gender qualifiers right this second. But it might not be a bad idea to pause and ask yourself why you think you need to specify that the doctor is female and the teacher is male. Is it important? Or is it just not exactly what you would expect?
- Tichy 13y agoI looked on Wikipedia, apparently Asian Americans comprise 5.6% of the population. Perhaps that is low enough to not be the default assumption about somebody, warranting special mention? Also according to Wikipedia "White Americans" are 72% of the population.
- static_typed 13y agoDo you have a strong shoulder? From carrying that rather large chip on it? Just curious?
- smtddr 13y agoYou need to chill out. That is a seriously gigantic leap & stretch of logic to bring the word "racism" into. You do nothing but harm the foundation of the people pointing out real racism/sexist incidents. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING(I'm saying that a lot these days), this is a satire story about a start-up's interview process. Good Story-telling causes the reader to bring up images in their mind. Simply mentioning a race isn't racism in this context. The story wasn't even using it in a negative way or anything.
- snake_plissken 13y agoIt's story telling; trying to tell a good story with the use of certain specific descriptions the author feels reflect the environment. The use of 'Asian Lady' invokes imagery of a stoic, calculating, strictly business and slightly mysterious entity, which may or may not exercise some large degree of control over the situation.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- hackinthebochs 13y agoThat actually stood out to me as well, but I disagree with the others that the detail was meaningless. Of course, the detail we choose to convey has very specific meaning, sometimes unintentionally. The point of "asian lady" does paint a specific picture, but to me it conjures an image of an older, motherly/grandmotherly image (no one refers to a woman in their age/social/cultural group as 'lady' these days). The point was likely to describe a very unusual group of people: "Two Daves, one in a T-shirt, and an [old] Asian lady". The lack of racial details of the Daves indicates that they're the typical archetype of a young startup programmer. They could essentially be any race, so it didn't matter to point it out. The asian lady was meant to be the oddball, so that specific detail was necessary to paint that picture.
- bliti 13y agoI see. Your interpretation makes sense. I did not take into account the word lady. I now understand the implication of her being mentioned. Normally, I use lady to refer to every, well, lady. It was my own habit that kept me from understanding the context behind the words.
- sgustard 13y agoThere's not a good term for a female peer. Lady or woman tend to imply someone older. Girl or gal are insulting. What's the equivalent for "guy" that means "just this female dude, you know?"
- talmir 13y agoIn reverse, why would it be such a bad thing that he mentioned that she was asian? Is then not as offending that he referred to an individual purely by an article of clothing. PC, while good when faced with derogatory remarks and such, can be overused. I did my bachelors degree in a pretty small school which was mostly filled with white teachers and students (I live in the north), and on staff there was only a single black man. It was quite interesting repeatedly seeing PC conscious people looking for him: "Is Andy here?" "Which Andy are you referring to? We have three," "Oh.. erm.." I am not saying "Oh, lets all be non-PC", but if the only defining feature about a person is being asian I dont see why it would be any worse than saying "dark haired woman". The minute we assign some kind of shame in either direction when it comes to pointing out race, disabilities or any other defining features, that is the moment we are steering in the wrong direction.
- redcan 13y agoWhat was the closed form expression for the number of rabbits?
- anvarik 13y agoAm also curious.
- benjaminwootton 13y agoI've made a good living as a programmer for a decade now, and I'm not afraid to say I don't even understand the question. It's a silly question unless it's for a quantitative role.
- duiker101 13y agoThank god I am not alone...
- agibsonccc 13y agoEdit: Redacted: left for consistency. Had him confused there. A closed form expression is basically just a mathematical function used to model a potentially infinite series. Take a look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-form_expression http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed-form_expression Look at the first and second examples. You'll see the big summation sign (for loop: i to infinite) and then an explicit function. If you want to think, what the heck is this math crap used for: think about a more basic everyday concept like recursion. How do you know it will terminate?
- pmelendez 13y agoI don't think he is talking about the closed form expression (at least I know what a closed-form is and still couldn't understand the question). There was no information whatsoever about what changes on each iteration... if nothing changes then the answer would be a constant of whatever rabbits were at the beginning... and that doesn't sound about right :/
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- tharshan09 13y agothe guy is exaggerating right?
- basicallydan 13y agoUm, I'm not sure what the point of this post was apart from an mildly interesting story, well told. I enjoyed reading it, thanks.
- facorreia 13y ago> Wait, it's on production? What is this, Ender's Game? Great description of surprise push-to-production.
- kazagistar 13y agoSo much so that I feel the birth of a new slang expression.
- mathattack 13y agoDoes this make Facebook the ultimate expression of Ender's Game?
- lucianomt 13y agoI actually LOL'd, which is rare.
- pc86 13y agoTelling us about it should be even more rare :)
- dylangs1030 13y agoIt's like something out of a hacker action flick. "You have 60 minutes to code a security patch for a vulnerable payment processing app." "Congratulations, you shipped to a million people and saved the company from hackers." I laughed pretty hard at that, and the "aggressive integration bit"...I'd probably leave if a company decided to ship something I coded in an hour in an interview.
- jzwinck 13y agoThis happened to me once, as in my first month at a new job, I came in one day to find I had caused a bug in production. But I hadn't deployed any software! It turned out that the department had carefully orchestrated a system whereby all checked-in code would move automatically to alpha the next day, then beta, then production the next week. But nobody told me. A manager there later told me, "If the code we write is strong enough, it does not need to be released--it will escape." And the student understood.
- alexmorse 13y agoI'm looking forward to the collected essays "Somewhat verbatim guide on how not to run a company."
- advisedwang 13y agoVerbose. Verbatim means "in exactly the same words as were used originally."
- redfhendrix 13y agoI think that's what the "Somewhat" is for. It's supposed to enhance the satirical qualities of the pieces. i.e. "This is exactly how I perceive start-up interviews but I've taken some creative liberties to drive my point home."
- ulisesrmzroche 13y agoVerbose means a shit-ton of words so that's not the right usage.
- memsom 13y agoDoesn't it just mean "word for word" or "exactly the same as"? I don't think the extra words in your explanation really need to be there. One can use the term in general, such as "copy an essay verbatim" or really any type of work or performance (e.g. musical recording), even if it is non verbal.
- jaredstenquist 13y agoI'd look at this as a positive experience. You were able to realize in an hour or two, with one visit, that XYZ company was not a good fit for you. There's a good chance the next company will suck for some reason or another. On to the next one.
- ryandetzel 13y agoSounds about right. You forgot the ridiculous comp sci question that you'll never use (or you could lookup easy enough) but they want to make sure you paid attention in class 5 years ago.
- redfhendrix 13y agoIt seems that 90% of the comments have missed the fact that this is obviously hyperbolic satire....
- riggins 13y agoyep. In light of this being satire, the HN news comments are 10x funnier than the article itself. Some unsolicited advice (you're lucky, you found out it was a crap company in 2 hours) and some PC outrage (why does it have to be an Asian lady).
- infinite8s 13y agoAnd an unnamed Asian lady at that.
- philangist 13y agoIt's not really that hyperbolic. Only thing that clued me in was surprise push to production.
- redfhendrix 13y agoAfter staring at the rabbit, black hole, and troll question for a few seconds and going "WUT?" I started to get the feeling this didn't actually happen.
- 13y ago
- corobo 13y agoThis is one of those blogs that needs an RSS feed or email subscription. I'm interested in reading more from it, however will have forgotten the domain by the end of the day
- at-fates-hands 13y agoOne of the reasons HN needs a search function for stories. Don't know how many times I remember a cool story a co-worker would want to read and can't find it for the life of me - even after trying to wrestle the story out of Google. Also, if there is some decent way to search the links or stories which I don't know of, by all means, tell me.
- unimpressive 13y agohttps://www.hnsearch.com/ https://www.hnsearch.com/
- mlashcorp 13y agoSounds like fiction
- untitledwiz 13y agoI thought it was very well written and was quite amused!
- dandare 13y ago“If you could change anything, what would it be?” I want to be smarter.
- ramy_d 13y agoYour question.
- ianstallings 13y ago“If you could change anything, what would it be?” "My honesty" "I don't see honesty as a problem that needs changing" "I don't give a shit what you think"
- bookface 13y agoEvery "bad interview" story that graces the front page of HN has this common theme that the interviewee is an infallible genius who aces every question. I know there's a bias here (better engineers are probably more likely to blog in the first place and most people would rather write about an experience where they're the "victor"), but it would be nice to read an article from someone acknowledging their own failure just once.
- conjectures 13y agoYou've also got to wonder whether what gets voted to front page HN is biased. Could be there's lots of accounts of abject failure out there - just nobody is amused by them.
- reikonomusha 13y agoI see what you're saying, but I can provide at least one counterexample. This was on the front page whenever: http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=2055 http://symbo1ics.com/blog/?p=2055 There were loads of interviewee issues that occurred in the article. Hopefully that balances things a little.
- bookface 13y agoGood read. Thanks for that. edit: HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6243627 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6243627
- at-fates-hands 13y agoWhen I read stories like these, I don' think of it in terms of the interviewee being a genius and "above" the silly questions they ask them. For me, it's a look inside a company who doesn't have their shit together and doesn't know how to properly interview candidates for the position they're hiring.
- sgustard 13y agoSee the story of the person who broke down crying at an interview, from last week - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6389293 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6389293
- soneca 13y agoThis is the first post of their "saga": http://blog.galler.io/startup-dialog http://blog.galler.io/startup-dialog Maybe it will help everybody understand that this is a satire...
- enry_straker 13y agoThe problem with satire is when it hits too close to home - and you recognize it as SOP in many organizations.
- ianstallings 13y agoThat's not a problem, it's a solution. To you losing your sanity ;) Sometimes it's best just to laugh at the sheer insanity of it all. We'll get there guys, but it might take a couple hundred years.
- mathattack 13y agoAhh... The rabbit hole question seemed like a hint too, but this confirms it. Unfortunately this means that the Enders Game line wasn't said in reality. Though perhaps in the future it will be.
- girvo 13y agoI know this is satire... But quite literally, at a place I worked at (for two months, I quit) they actually did push code that wrote in the second interview to production.
- mason55 13y agoI was at a talk last week where pushing interview code to production was highlighted as a good lean practice and recruiting tool Someone in the audience asked if they made the interviewees sign anything since the company was using their unpaid labor and the guy giving the talk was seriously dumbfounded as if the idea had literally never even occurred to him.
- Apocryphon 13y agoSounds like they don't even need to recruit anyone, just continuously hold interviews.
- ssw1n 13y agoOn the next episode, I guess the character Mike will get an offer, and will be asked to move-in to the company house where all 5 employees of the whole company live in the same big apartment?
- jackmaney 13y agoAnd then there will be a reality show called "Six is a Company".
- viennacoder 13y agoIt's funny because it's true.