4 ms·

That quote is taken a little bit out of context. The first part is referencing the opinions of others about InstallMonetizer - people said they think IM was ins

That quote is taken a little bit out of context. The first part is referencing the opinions of others about InstallMonetizer - people said they think IM was installing crapware. PG said that crapware is a relative term, and if people have the option of declining to install something, then they deemed it to be not crapware. We can't handcuff everyone into making the same decisions we do - regardless of what we think the quality of the software and motives are. Educating users is the goal we should be shooting for, so when they see a screen with check boxes, they don't just hit agree and go on, they realize what clicking "I Agree" could entail. I think that message could be something along the lines of "Don't just agree, think before you click".

RobAley 13y ago
At the end of the day, if people really wanted this software, the providers could default to making it opt-in and on balance they wouldn't be any the worse off for it. There is a clear reason "I Agree" is pre-checked. Educating users is a band-aid, treating the symptom and not the cause. The cause is scummy companies like InstallMonetizer, and hopefully people like PG/YC will come to see how it hurts their brand, no matter how they think reality differs from peoples impressions of such companies.
anon1385 13y ago
Bullshit. These kinds of installers trick people into installing things they would never install by choice. For example there are windows where ticking one checkbox disables installation of a toolbar, but ticking the next one enables a different one. So people read the text on the first one and then tick everything, which results in spyware being installed on their machine. The entire installation process for these kinds of things is like that because NOBODY who knows what they are actually wants to install spyware toolbars on their computer. Would you consider tricking a person with poor literacy skills into signing a contract that gives them your house a moral thing to do? Why is tricking somebody into giving you full access to their computer any different? Also, much like legal contracts can still trick the literate, these installers can trick even technically proficient users who weren't expecting to suddenly have to engage in a battle of wits with their computer.
- makomk 13y ago
  I believe that InstallMonetizer in particular designed the screen where you agree to install their crapware to look like other installers' EULA-acceptance page - see e.g. the second screenshot here http://www.little-apps.co.uk/blog/2012/11/why-was-this-other-software-installed/ http://www.little-apps.co.uk/blog/2012/11/why-was-this-other... In order not to get unwanted crapware, you have to click the Decline button, which would normally stop your desired software from being installed.
  - cdonnellytx 13y ago
    They even put the Decline button on the left, which goes against how virtually every other Windows installer (and wizards in general) are supposed to work.
SCdF 13y ago
If something you didn't ask for defaults to being installed along-side what you did ask for, regardless of that thing is, it's crapware (imo). Smashing 'next' in an installer should do the right thing: it should install the things you most likely need in the app you downloaded, in the place that makes the most sense on your system, etc. In almost no cases is the right thing installing some random ass toolbar.
belorn 13y ago
Defending fraud is never acceptable. Those installers are designed to con users into economical exploitive agreements. Its no difference from sending false bills to people, or calling them on the phone and offer a "free"¹ subscription. I have seen installers with right bottom for OK, and left to Cancel install, as is is standard. However, a few steps into the installation, a toolbar question came up where OK meant install toolbar and Cancle meaning not installing toolbar but continue install. Bascially, left button Cancel went from aborting the install to continue the install through a sleight of hand trick (deception). Since its done for economical gain, its fraud - As clear case as it can get. Fraud: intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual.² ¹: 3 year binding agreement with first month free. ²: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud
- lifeisstillgood 13y ago
  sadly that won't count as fraud. if you read the text it does say cancel = don't install crapware. which is not deception just unethical.
  - belorn 13y ago
    If a person sends "offers of subscription" that just happen to look like a invoice, that is still fraud. It doesn't matter that people can elect not to "buy" by following the fine print that say "this is a offer".¹ If you want, I can list several similar crimes like salting the mine², the Romance scam², or the classic Nigerian scam. Each too allows the victim to opt out, each are equally fraudulent behavior, and equally illegal. The law do not require that the criminal has lied, only that deception has happened. Giving the victim a chance to opt out does not give scammers a "get out of jail card". If it did, that would be the first thing any caught scam artist would say. ¹ http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/fraud-az-invoice-scams http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/fraud-az-invoice-scams ² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salting_%28confidence_trick%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salting_%28confidence_trick%29 ² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_scam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_scam
gurumeditation 13y ago
Whatever helps him sleep at night

RobAley 13y ago

At the end of the day, if people really wanted this software, the providers could default to making it opt-in and on balance they wouldn't be any the worse off for it. There is a clear reason "I Agree" is pre-checked. Educating users is a band-aid, treating the symptom and not the cause. The cause is scummy companies like InstallMonetizer, and hopefully people like PG/YC will come to see how it hurts their brand, no matter how they think reality differs from peoples impressions of such companies.

anon1385 13y ago

Bullshit. These kinds of installers trick people into installing things they would never install by choice. For example there are windows where ticking one checkbox disables installation of a toolbar, but ticking the next one enables a different one. So people read the text on the first one and then tick everything, which results in spyware being installed on their machine. The entire installation process for these kinds of things is like that because NOBODY who knows what they are actually wants to install spyware toolbars on their computer. Would you consider tricking a person with poor literacy skills into signing a contract that gives them your house a moral thing to do? Why is tricking somebody into giving you full access to their computer any different? Also, much like legal contracts can still trick the literate, these installers can trick even technically proficient users who weren't expecting to suddenly have to engage in a battle of wits with their computer.

makomk 13y ago
I believe that InstallMonetizer in particular designed the screen where you agree to install their crapware to look like other installers' EULA-acceptance page - see e.g. the second screenshot here http://www.little-apps.co.uk/blog/2012/11/why-was-this-other-software-installed/ http://www.little-apps.co.uk/blog/2012/11/why-was-this-other... In order not to get unwanted crapware, you have to click the Decline button, which would normally stop your desired software from being installed.
- cdonnellytx 13y ago
  They even put the Decline button on the left, which goes against how virtually every other Windows installer (and wizards in general) are supposed to work.

SCdF 13y ago

If something you didn't ask for defaults to being installed along-side what you did ask for, regardless of that thing is, it's crapware (imo). Smashing 'next' in an installer should do the right thing: it should install the things you most likely need in the app you downloaded, in the place that makes the most sense on your system, etc. In almost no cases is the right thing installing some random ass toolbar.

belorn 13y ago

Defending fraud is never acceptable. Those installers are designed to con users into economical exploitive agreements. Its no difference from sending false bills to people, or calling them on the phone and offer a "free"¹ subscription. I have seen installers with right bottom for OK, and left to Cancel install, as is is standard. However, a few steps into the installation, a toolbar question came up where OK meant install toolbar and Cancle meaning not installing toolbar but continue install. Bascially, left button Cancel went from aborting the install to continue the install through a sleight of hand trick (deception). Since its done for economical gain, its fraud - As clear case as it can get. Fraud: intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual.² ¹: 3 year binding agreement with first month free. ²: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud

lifeisstillgood 13y ago
sadly that won't count as fraud. if you read the text it does say cancel = don't install crapware. which is not deception just unethical.
- belorn 13y ago
  If a person sends "offers of subscription" that just happen to look like a invoice, that is still fraud. It doesn't matter that people can elect not to "buy" by following the fine print that say "this is a offer".¹ If you want, I can list several similar crimes like salting the mine², the Romance scam², or the classic Nigerian scam. Each too allows the victim to opt out, each are equally fraudulent behavior, and equally illegal. The law do not require that the criminal has lied, only that deception has happened. Giving the victim a chance to opt out does not give scammers a "get out of jail card". If it did, that would be the first thing any caught scam artist would say. ¹ http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/fraud-az-invoice-scams http://www.actionfraud.police.uk/fraud-az-invoice-scams ² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salting_%28confidence_trick%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salting_%28confidence_trick%29 ² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_scam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_scam

gurumeditation 13y ago

Whatever helps him sleep at night