8 ms·

I don't know about Rockstar, but from what I've heard from game developers from big studios, they're driven like slaves. Crunch time, unpaid overtime, wages tha

by sspiff 13y ago

I don't know about Rockstar, but from what I've heard from game developers from big studios, they're driven like slaves. Crunch time, unpaid overtime, wages that are not paid on time, etc etc. It's easier to be on time and on budget if you break rules like 8 hour days and proper remuneration of the workforce.

joering2 13y ago
Yes, but much harder to create such a strong brand that people are actually willing to be "ripped off" of time and wages. I cannot comment on quality of work for Rockstar tho.
- sspiff 13y ago
  I agree, but many programmers start programming to make games. If that's still what you want to do by the time you graduate, that's possibly a dream you've been working on for 10+ years. If you're offered a bottom-level job at a great studio, these are often presented as a stepping stone to said dream, so many people end up there and stay until they're drained. Again, I can't testify that this is the case for Rockstar, but I know it's the case with some other major studio's.
product50 13y ago
If you don't know about Rockstar then don't comment. This is a great game and it really appears that the developers have put their everything in building it. Sometimes people want to work hard to make sure their output is a success. It is not always about 40hrs work week. A great company is one which creates a culture to build impressive products and where employees feel motivated to be a part of it. I am not saying that Rockstar employees worked more than 40hrs/week (I have no idea) but if I were a Rockstar employee I would be damn proud of the output.
- valryon 13y ago
  For Red Dead Redemption, wives of the developers has written several open letters to show the world the horrible condition their husbands were facing. You can easily find this story, like on Gamasutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RockstarSpouse/20100107/4032/Wives_of_Rockstar_San_Diego_employees_have_collected_themselves.php http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RockstarSpouse/20100107/4032/...
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    So Rockstar San Diego is 100% male then?
    - antihero 13y ago
      Have you entirely missed the point?
      - jiggy2011 13y ago
        It is signed "Determined Devoted Wives of Rockstar San Diego employees." So either it is 100% male OR the female staff are either unmarried or do not have the same complaints.
        sspiff 13y ago
        The fact that they're not represented in this letter doesn't mean they don't have these complains. They may not have voiced them, or voiced them privately or elsewhere. If I write a blog post about how I feel I'm being exploited by my employer, that doesn't necessarily mean my colleagues don't feel the same.
        jiggy2011 13y ago
        It is possible, but this looks like it was written on behalf of a large group of people and it seems strange to sign it in such a gender specific way.
        FurrBall 13y ago
        It's not strange if you consider there were no female programmers on the team. Demographics is a different point all together.
        hobs 13y ago
        It also isnt strange if it is literally the wives of people who did it, those who are waifuless did not have a wife participate in the document.
- sillysaurus2 13y ago
  Man, you have swallowed every last drop of the koolaid they're selling you. Consider this situation: You've spent most of your life training yourself as a game developer, only to find out that every company you'd like to work for will drive you like a slave. 50+ hours per week is not merely an option, but a necessity if you want to remain competitive. And since everyone wants to be a game developer, that means your salary is less than in other types of compsci jobs. So, that culture stuff you're speaking of? It's bullshit. Ultimately it's a method of getting you to do the bidding of others. It's not about you at all. No one is looking out for you, and while you may feel like you're part of a team, that team has no loyalty to you. If you stop performing at peak level for even a couple months then your prospects will be severely harmed. Employees get to feel proud they've literally sacrificed part of their life to help someone else succeed. And you're supporting pervasive lawbreaking in the name of "that's just what it takes"! If game companies are finding it hard to recruit talent, well, that's probably because people are finally wise to their ways. You won't find anyone who was more in love with the idea of being a game developer than I was, but the reality of the industry is abhorrent. The shared culture has utterly decimated any hope of work-life balance in the gamedev industry in the US. My options were to work elsewhere or to move overseas. And by working elsewhere I get more cash, get to work on problems that are more interesting, and I learn more. European developers seem to have figured out how to develop next-gen games without any of the bullshit methods of control you've described. Maybe US companies should start caring how.
  - jbackus 13y ago
    > So, that culture stuff you're speaking of? It's bullshit. Ultimately it's a method of getting you to do the bidding of others. It's not about you at all. No one is looking out for you, and while you may feel like you're part of a team, that team has no loyalty to you. If you stop performing at peak level for even a couple months then your prospects will be severely harmed. > Employees get to feel proud they've literally sacrificed part of their life to help someone else succeed. Your tone suggests outrage but you're just describing the nature of competition. You are agreeing to trade your time and skills for money. "Getting you to do the bidding of others" is a cynical way to put it, but if a certain type of team building yields good results why would a company not go down that path? Of course you're going to be replaced if the you aren't producing the results you were hired for, this is the nature of competition. There is no fair or unfair. Employees are not sacrificing part of their life for someone else, they're trading their time to someone else. No one is forcing anyone to be a game developer.
Wingman4l7 13y ago
I don't know if this is actual industry lingo, but Penny Arcade has stories of "the trenches" to accompany its sister comic: http://trenchescomic.com/ http://trenchescomic.com/ Suffice to say that after reading those stories I'm never touching a QA/tester game industry job with a 10-foot pole.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
Slaves is probably not the right word, though working conditions in the game industry are on average pretty brutal. However, a big reason why they are is because there is such a huge pool of 20-something devs out there who are eagerly lined up to jump into gamedev. And it usually takes several years of living in that meat grinder for the scales to fall away from peoples' eyes, but even then as they leave there are plenty more lined up to take their place. From the perspective of management there's no problem at all, even though such working conditions actually cause a lot of fundamental issues in being able to successfully execute and continually losing the most senior and experienced devs as they get older and less tolerant of bullshit is kind of a big deal. See also: silicon valley startup culture.
yeureka 13y ago
In the Edinburgh office wages are much lower than in equivalent positions outside games, and everyone is waiting for a bonus to compensate for the crunch they had to put in to finish the game. I hope they do get a big bonus, my friend is basically living to work, not the other way around.

by sspiff 13y ago

joering2 13y ago

Yes, but much harder to create such a strong brand that people are actually willing to be "ripped off" of time and wages. I cannot comment on quality of work for Rockstar tho.

sspiff 13y ago
I agree, but many programmers start programming to make games. If that's still what you want to do by the time you graduate, that's possibly a dream you've been working on for 10+ years. If you're offered a bottom-level job at a great studio, these are often presented as a stepping stone to said dream, so many people end up there and stay until they're drained. Again, I can't testify that this is the case for Rockstar, but I know it's the case with some other major studio's.

product50 13y ago

If you don't know about Rockstar then don't comment. This is a great game and it really appears that the developers have put their everything in building it. Sometimes people want to work hard to make sure their output is a success. It is not always about 40hrs work week. A great company is one which creates a culture to build impressive products and where employees feel motivated to be a part of it. I am not saying that Rockstar employees worked more than 40hrs/week (I have no idea) but if I were a Rockstar employee I would be damn proud of the output.

valryon 13y ago
For Red Dead Redemption, wives of the developers has written several open letters to show the world the horrible condition their husbands were facing. You can easily find this story, like on Gamasutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RockstarSpouse/20100107/4032/Wives_of_Rockstar_San_Diego_employees_have_collected_themselves.php http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RockstarSpouse/20100107/4032/...
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  So Rockstar San Diego is 100% male then?
  - antihero 13y ago
    Have you entirely missed the point?
    - jiggy2011 13y ago
      It is signed "Determined Devoted Wives of Rockstar San Diego employees." So either it is 100% male OR the female staff are either unmarried or do not have the same complaints.
      - sspiff 13y ago
        The fact that they're not represented in this letter doesn't mean they don't have these complains. They may not have voiced them, or voiced them privately or elsewhere. If I write a blog post about how I feel I'm being exploited by my employer, that doesn't necessarily mean my colleagues don't feel the same.
        jiggy2011 13y ago
        It is possible, but this looks like it was written on behalf of a large group of people and it seems strange to sign it in such a gender specific way.
        FurrBall 13y ago
        It's not strange if you consider there were no female programmers on the team. Demographics is a different point all together.
        hobs 13y ago
        It also isnt strange if it is literally the wives of people who did it, those who are waifuless did not have a wife participate in the document.
sillysaurus2 13y ago
Man, you have swallowed every last drop of the koolaid they're selling you. Consider this situation: You've spent most of your life training yourself as a game developer, only to find out that every company you'd like to work for will drive you like a slave. 50+ hours per week is not merely an option, but a necessity if you want to remain competitive. And since everyone wants to be a game developer, that means your salary is less than in other types of compsci jobs. So, that culture stuff you're speaking of? It's bullshit. Ultimately it's a method of getting you to do the bidding of others. It's not about you at all. No one is looking out for you, and while you may feel like you're part of a team, that team has no loyalty to you. If you stop performing at peak level for even a couple months then your prospects will be severely harmed. Employees get to feel proud they've literally sacrificed part of their life to help someone else succeed. And you're supporting pervasive lawbreaking in the name of "that's just what it takes"! If game companies are finding it hard to recruit talent, well, that's probably because people are finally wise to their ways. You won't find anyone who was more in love with the idea of being a game developer than I was, but the reality of the industry is abhorrent. The shared culture has utterly decimated any hope of work-life balance in the gamedev industry in the US. My options were to work elsewhere or to move overseas. And by working elsewhere I get more cash, get to work on problems that are more interesting, and I learn more. European developers seem to have figured out how to develop next-gen games without any of the bullshit methods of control you've described. Maybe US companies should start caring how.
- jbackus 13y ago
  > So, that culture stuff you're speaking of? It's bullshit. Ultimately it's a method of getting you to do the bidding of others. It's not about you at all. No one is looking out for you, and while you may feel like you're part of a team, that team has no loyalty to you. If you stop performing at peak level for even a couple months then your prospects will be severely harmed. > Employees get to feel proud they've literally sacrificed part of their life to help someone else succeed. Your tone suggests outrage but you're just describing the nature of competition. You are agreeing to trade your time and skills for money. "Getting you to do the bidding of others" is a cynical way to put it, but if a certain type of team building yields good results why would a company not go down that path? Of course you're going to be replaced if the you aren't producing the results you were hired for, this is the nature of competition. There is no fair or unfair. Employees are not sacrificing part of their life for someone else, they're trading their time to someone else. No one is forcing anyone to be a game developer.

Wingman4l7 13y ago

I don't know if this is actual industry lingo, but Penny Arcade has stories of "the trenches" to accompany its sister comic: http://trenchescomic.com/ http://trenchescomic.com/ Suffice to say that after reading those stories I'm never touching a QA/tester game industry job with a 10-foot pole.

InclinedPlane 13y ago

Slaves is probably not the right word, though working conditions in the game industry are on average pretty brutal. However, a big reason why they are is because there is such a huge pool of 20-something devs out there who are eagerly lined up to jump into gamedev. And it usually takes several years of living in that meat grinder for the scales to fall away from peoples' eyes, but even then as they leave there are plenty more lined up to take their place. From the perspective of management there's no problem at all, even though such working conditions actually cause a lot of fundamental issues in being able to successfully execute and continually losing the most senior and experienced devs as they get older and less tolerant of bullshit is kind of a big deal. See also: silicon valley startup culture.

yeureka 13y ago

In the Edinburgh office wages are much lower than in equivalent positions outside games, and everyone is waiting for a bonus to compensate for the crunch they had to put in to finish the game. I hope they do get a big bonus, my friend is basically living to work, not the other way around.