10 ms·

Brainwashed? If that is brainwashing, then it seems like there's brainwashing everywhere you look. For example: - http://www.foxnews.com/ http://www.foxnews.c

by andyl 13y ago

Brainwashed? If that is brainwashing, then it seems like there's brainwashing everywhere you look. For example: - http://www.foxnews.com/ http://www.foxnews.com/ - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBbBfrKsVqY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBbBfrKsVqY

samineru 13y ago
Yes.
daenz 13y ago
It sounds more like de-brainwashing to me. If those soldiers go in with this perfect idea of America, how we can do no wrong, and how everything we do is justified, then turning that on its head seems more like...rational thinking.
- comex 13y ago
  If an opinion is being slowly but inexorably pushed on you from all sides by your captor over a long period of time, as part of an explicitly designed program of of propagandizing, it's brainwashing, regardless of the opinion's merit!
  - grandalf 13y ago
    It could still move the person's mental state toward improved rationality.
    - stephengillie 13y ago
      Is this what "deprogramming" a brainwashed person is? Moving them from the position of their captors' propaganda to a position within the propaganda believed by an entire society? Patriotism being one example of this type of propaganda -- the idea that some of us are better than others because we were born on one side of a line in the dirt.
      - md224 13y ago
        This is why I find the concept of brainwashing/deprogramming fascinating from an epistemic perspective; you're essentially substituting one set of axioms for another. And it's often hard to determine who occupies the epistemic higher ground, since all camps will claim to do so. For example, liberals think Fox News is brainwashing people, and conservatives think academics at liberal schools are brainwashing people. Sometimes the only thing you can use to figure out what's true is secondhand knowledge (via a network of cognitive authorities that you've chosen to trust) plus your own judgment, which itself has inevitably been influenced by some set of chosen axioms. And often each system of beliefs has epistemic protection against debunking... for example, religious believers may view debunkers as agents of evil/Satan, while conspiracy theorists may view debunkers as agents working on behalf of the conspirators. In both cases, one has a "rational" reason to be skeptical of (or even outright disregard) any arguments that attempt to undermine one's axiomatic system.
        xerophtye 13y ago
        So the beauty of brainwashing/deprogramming is how you actually manage to substitute those axioms, even though they may actually lead them to disregard everything you say. That's like inception from the outside!
        philwelch 13y ago
        Humans don't work the way you think they work. We don't hold sets of axioms and reason from them to build a logically consistent set of opinions in such a way that changing someone's axioms carries the whole weight of their belief system along with it, like making a code change in a shared dependency changes the behavior of an entire computer system. Humans are a lot messier than that.
        grandalf 13y ago
        Humans seem to gravitate toward certainty and consistency the way moths fly toward light. It's an emotional craving, and in order to be rational we have to be exceedingly comfortable not knowing things (and realizing we often don't know what we don't know). The more a person seeks the opiatic, emotional feeling of fake knowing, the more receptive he is to religion, political brainwashing, conspiracy theories, prejudices, social authority structures, etc.
  - stephengillie 13y ago
    The religious education that my parents gave me through childhood counts as brainwashing.
    - victorf 13y ago
      I don't know if you are being facetious or not, but I think all religious teachings for children count as brainwashing.
      - troels 13y ago
        Alao if the religious beliefs are agnosticism? Basically, by this definition, all parenting is brainwashing.
        tedunangst 13y ago
        no, no, no, if you teach your children beliefs I approve of, that's different...
        Sandman 13y ago
        Not if you teach your children critical thinking and to base their opinions on something provable.
        xerophtye 13y ago
        Then you're still doing brainwashing/indoctrination. Let's not forget, it's "irrespective of the opinion's merit". Besides, just as you hold your "must be provable" views dear, similarly the religious parent holds his or her religious views dear.
        philwelch 13y ago
        I think there's a useful distinction between teaching a set of opinions that must be held regardless of evidence and teaching the practice of forming one's own opinions based upon evidence, but it's a tricky point to make.
  - DominikR 13y ago
    We do this all the time, for example to immigrants. We call this integration in europe, you might also call this learning/internalizing the right values or assimilation. And if I had to choose between that kind of Chinese brainwashing and Guantanamo/CIA black sites, I'll pick the Chinese option.
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      I'd take a good brain washing over torture too.
- 6d0debc071 13y ago
  If you have a mistaken belief, then the inverse of that belief is not necessarily correct. I find it hard to believe those soldiers were in a position - in a prison camp - to reliably determine whether America had used germ warfare, or to assess whether Communism had 'done a fine job in China.'
- philwelch 13y ago
  The reasonable perspective is that America isn't perfect, America can do wrong, and not everything America does is justified. The brainwashing occurs when you go past this reasonable perspective straight to: Communist China is perfect, America can only do wrong, and nothing America does is justified while everything the Communist Chinese do is. And when you're comparing the US of 1950 to the Communist China of 1950, frankly, if the pro-US viewpoint is naive, the pro-Mao viewpoint is utterly deluded. You still run into the kind of people who try to draw moral equivalence between the Japanese internment and Dachau to this day. I'm not saying this to deflect criticism, because I hold the US to a much higher standard than the rest of the world and the way to do that is to be critical. But coming to the conclusion that the US used chemical weapons in Korea (we didn't) or that Mao was a positive force for China in the 1950's (he wasn't) just because America falls short is a very long way on the opposite side of reasonable.
pessimizer 13y ago
There's no such thing as brainwashing. It was a piece of propaganda to use against the Communists during the Korean War, and the fantasy of a bunch of shadowy government agencies that only seem to be able to poison a bunch of people or get them high during brainwashing experiments.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
pintglass 13y ago
I'd say most news media and many T.V. shows reinforce ideas that oppose accepting that there is an alternative viewpoint. Are you sure you haven't been brainwashed to hate Fox News and anything that shows a flag and an eagle with patriotic music in the background? Let's try this on for size: Is Fox News racist, elitist, sexist, and homophobic? My guess is that you just answered yes to at least 3 of those, however if I asked you for specific proof, you'd have a hard time making your argument in short order. Why is that? Perhaps because you didn't make up your mind for yourself. Someone else made it up for you. Sure you can go Google and find whatever evidence you want to support those 4 viewpoints, but I'm 100% positive you didn't have evidence for all of the things you thought when I first asked the question.
- pintglass 13y ago
  To provide the other side of that coin, I also think that some of what Fox News, the Tea Party, etc. push is bologna. Consider the conservative view that we need to secure our border because illegal immigrants take jobs away from Americans. Jobs aren't taken, they are given. Those jobs are not specifically given to illegals. You could have one, too. If they can live off of those jobs and send money home to their folks, it should be enough to live on. Maybe not enough to send your kids to college, but that isn't a guaranteed right. Higher taxes and loopholes lead to U.S. companies hiring offshore workers, but that isn't the same for immigrants. We need more of them, like we had in the 1800-1900s, to boost our economy. I have never known a lazy, undedicated person to sneak over the border and work summers to send money home to their families. Those families should instead be in the U.S. and not in Mexico, etc. Then not only would the U.S. have a great labor force, but they would be spending that money on food and goods in the U.S.
  - marshray 13y ago
    Your point was a lot more coherent before "the other side of that coin".
  - agilebyte 13y ago
    In the UK, some people complain that because immigrants are sending their money home, it is not being spent in the UK hence not helping the economy as much as them, for they are proper good consumerists. Free movement of money in the EU and all that...
marshray 13y ago
Really? A sappy slide show set to Lee Greenwood with 316,000 views over 4 years is comparable to a Communist POW camp. If that's brainwashing, then what do you call this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH2-TGUlwu4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH2-TGUlwu4 101,912,811 views.

by andyl 13y ago

samineru 13y ago

Yes.

daenz 13y ago

It sounds more like de-brainwashing to me. If those soldiers go in with this perfect idea of America, how we can do no wrong, and how everything we do is justified, then turning that on its head seems more like...rational thinking.

comex 13y ago
If an opinion is being slowly but inexorably pushed on you from all sides by your captor over a long period of time, as part of an explicitly designed program of of propagandizing, it's brainwashing, regardless of the opinion's merit!
- grandalf 13y ago
  It could still move the person's mental state toward improved rationality.
  - stephengillie 13y ago
    Is this what "deprogramming" a brainwashed person is? Moving them from the position of their captors' propaganda to a position within the propaganda believed by an entire society? Patriotism being one example of this type of propaganda -- the idea that some of us are better than others because we were born on one side of a line in the dirt.
    - md224 13y ago
      This is why I find the concept of brainwashing/deprogramming fascinating from an epistemic perspective; you're essentially substituting one set of axioms for another. And it's often hard to determine who occupies the epistemic higher ground, since all camps will claim to do so. For example, liberals think Fox News is brainwashing people, and conservatives think academics at liberal schools are brainwashing people. Sometimes the only thing you can use to figure out what's true is secondhand knowledge (via a network of cognitive authorities that you've chosen to trust) plus your own judgment, which itself has inevitably been influenced by some set of chosen axioms. And often each system of beliefs has epistemic protection against debunking... for example, religious believers may view debunkers as agents of evil/Satan, while conspiracy theorists may view debunkers as agents working on behalf of the conspirators. In both cases, one has a "rational" reason to be skeptical of (or even outright disregard) any arguments that attempt to undermine one's axiomatic system.
      - xerophtye 13y ago
        So the beauty of brainwashing/deprogramming is how you actually manage to substitute those axioms, even though they may actually lead them to disregard everything you say. That's like inception from the outside!
      - philwelch 13y ago
        Humans don't work the way you think they work. We don't hold sets of axioms and reason from them to build a logically consistent set of opinions in such a way that changing someone's axioms carries the whole weight of their belief system along with it, like making a code change in a shared dependency changes the behavior of an entire computer system. Humans are a lot messier than that.
      - grandalf 13y ago
        Humans seem to gravitate toward certainty and consistency the way moths fly toward light. It's an emotional craving, and in order to be rational we have to be exceedingly comfortable not knowing things (and realizing we often don't know what we don't know). The more a person seeks the opiatic, emotional feeling of fake knowing, the more receptive he is to religion, political brainwashing, conspiracy theories, prejudices, social authority structures, etc.
- stephengillie 13y ago
  The religious education that my parents gave me through childhood counts as brainwashing.
  - victorf 13y ago
    I don't know if you are being facetious or not, but I think all religious teachings for children count as brainwashing.
    - troels 13y ago
      Alao if the religious beliefs are agnosticism? Basically, by this definition, all parenting is brainwashing.
      - tedunangst 13y ago
        no, no, no, if you teach your children beliefs I approve of, that's different...
      - Sandman 13y ago
        Not if you teach your children critical thinking and to base their opinions on something provable.
        xerophtye 13y ago
        Then you're still doing brainwashing/indoctrination. Let's not forget, it's "irrespective of the opinion's merit". Besides, just as you hold your "must be provable" views dear, similarly the religious parent holds his or her religious views dear.
        philwelch 13y ago
        I think there's a useful distinction between teaching a set of opinions that must be held regardless of evidence and teaching the practice of forming one's own opinions based upon evidence, but it's a tricky point to make.
- DominikR 13y ago
  We do this all the time, for example to immigrants. We call this integration in europe, you might also call this learning/internalizing the right values or assimilation. And if I had to choose between that kind of Chinese brainwashing and Guantanamo/CIA black sites, I'll pick the Chinese option.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    I'd take a good brain washing over torture too.
6d0debc071 13y ago
If you have a mistaken belief, then the inverse of that belief is not necessarily correct. I find it hard to believe those soldiers were in a position - in a prison camp - to reliably determine whether America had used germ warfare, or to assess whether Communism had 'done a fine job in China.'
philwelch 13y ago
The reasonable perspective is that America isn't perfect, America can do wrong, and not everything America does is justified. The brainwashing occurs when you go past this reasonable perspective straight to: Communist China is perfect, America can only do wrong, and nothing America does is justified while everything the Communist Chinese do is. And when you're comparing the US of 1950 to the Communist China of 1950, frankly, if the pro-US viewpoint is naive, the pro-Mao viewpoint is utterly deluded. You still run into the kind of people who try to draw moral equivalence between the Japanese internment and Dachau to this day. I'm not saying this to deflect criticism, because I hold the US to a much higher standard than the rest of the world and the way to do that is to be critical. But coming to the conclusion that the US used chemical weapons in Korea (we didn't) or that Mao was a positive force for China in the 1950's (he wasn't) just because America falls short is a very long way on the opposite side of reasonable.

pessimizer 13y ago

There's no such thing as brainwashing. It was a piece of propaganda to use against the Communists during the Korean War, and the fantasy of a bunch of shadowy government agencies that only seem to be able to poison a bunch of people or get them high during brainwashing experiments.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

pintglass 13y ago

I'd say most news media and many T.V. shows reinforce ideas that oppose accepting that there is an alternative viewpoint. Are you sure you haven't been brainwashed to hate Fox News and anything that shows a flag and an eagle with patriotic music in the background? Let's try this on for size: Is Fox News racist, elitist, sexist, and homophobic? My guess is that you just answered yes to at least 3 of those, however if I asked you for specific proof, you'd have a hard time making your argument in short order. Why is that? Perhaps because you didn't make up your mind for yourself. Someone else made it up for you. Sure you can go Google and find whatever evidence you want to support those 4 viewpoints, but I'm 100% positive you didn't have evidence for all of the things you thought when I first asked the question.

pintglass 13y ago
To provide the other side of that coin, I also think that some of what Fox News, the Tea Party, etc. push is bologna. Consider the conservative view that we need to secure our border because illegal immigrants take jobs away from Americans. Jobs aren't taken, they are given. Those jobs are not specifically given to illegals. You could have one, too. If they can live off of those jobs and send money home to their folks, it should be enough to live on. Maybe not enough to send your kids to college, but that isn't a guaranteed right. Higher taxes and loopholes lead to U.S. companies hiring offshore workers, but that isn't the same for immigrants. We need more of them, like we had in the 1800-1900s, to boost our economy. I have never known a lazy, undedicated person to sneak over the border and work summers to send money home to their families. Those families should instead be in the U.S. and not in Mexico, etc. Then not only would the U.S. have a great labor force, but they would be spending that money on food and goods in the U.S.
- marshray 13y ago
  Your point was a lot more coherent before "the other side of that coin".
- agilebyte 13y ago
  In the UK, some people complain that because immigrants are sending their money home, it is not being spent in the UK hence not helping the economy as much as them, for they are proper good consumerists. Free movement of money in the EU and all that...

marshray 13y ago

Really? A sappy slide show set to Lee Greenwood with 316,000 views over 4 years is comparable to a Communist POW camp. If that's brainwashing, then what do you call this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH2-TGUlwu4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH2-TGUlwu4 101,912,811 views.