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None of these seem impossible to overcome. The current proposed HSR is targeted at $60-100 billion, the estimate for Hyperloop was $9 billion. I find it hard

None of these seem impossible to overcome. The current proposed HSR is targeted at $60-100 billion, the estimate for Hyperloop was $9 billion. I find it hard to believe that Elon Musk who sent a rocket to an orbiting space station would be off in his calculations by the 550%-1000% needed reach the price of HSR. So I think we should be impressed by the results of this study and get on with more studies to address the additional concerns tptacek posted. Edit: I'm not trying to rebut or argue about any of the challenges. I'm just saying I find it highly unlikely any of them are 50+ billion dollar problems.

tptacek 13y ago
"Because Elon Musk" is not a real rebuttal to any argument. A somewhat cynical but I think on-the-money assessment of the Hyperloop is that it isn't at all a real proposal, but rather a sleight of hand to reduce buy-in to the CA HSR plan, which Musk opposes. That being the case, investing money in further studies seems like a dumb plan. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there are extraordinary claims in Musk's proposal with no evidence backing them up, so the onus is probably on him.
- tod222 13y ago
  > it isn't at all a real proposal, but rather a sleight of hand to reduce buy-in to the CA HSR plan, which Musk opposes. Absolutely. People familiar with the tech industry should recognize this pattern: Announce a vaporware [1] product as part of a FUD [2] campaign against the enemy. When considered in this way, Musk's actions with Hyperloop make a lot of sense. This is a classic FUD move against CA HSR. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt
  - 9999 13y ago
    In what way are Musk's criticisms of the CA HSR plan FUD? Frankly, the HSR plan is a dud, and his criticisms are largely, if not entirely, valid. The cost is astronomically high, as a result of that the ticket costs will be greater than airfare. The route they've chosen also means that the journey will take far longer than it should. Would you actually consider taking a 2 hour 38 minute train trip from LA to SF at > $200 round-trip? Even if Musk's Hyperloop proposal remains only a proposal, if nothing else it should give people serious pause about the existing plan, and hopefully force a revision of it. The route through Palmdale is utterly pointless, tacks on a dozen minutes to a trip that's already too long, and exists largely to satisfy NIMBYs and give fat checks to a bunch of property speculators. That particular element of the HSR plan reeks of cowardice, corruption and graft. Consider this as an alternative: http://www.cahsrblog.com/2013/06/the-truth-about-tejon/ http://www.cahsrblog.com/2013/06/the-truth-about-tejon/ Musk's opposition to the existing plan is well reasoned and rational. Calling it FUD is itself a sort of FUD.
    - icambron 13y ago
      > In what way are Musk's criticisms of the CA HSR plan FUD? No one is saying they were. The parent and grandparent are saying the Hyperloop announcement is FUD. > if nothing else it should give people serious pause about the existing plan, and hopefully force a revision of it. So, at the very least, the uncertainty and doubt parts of FUD? Edit: s/fear/doubt

tptacek 13y ago

"Because Elon Musk" is not a real rebuttal to any argument. A somewhat cynical but I think on-the-money assessment of the Hyperloop is that it isn't at all a real proposal, but rather a sleight of hand to reduce buy-in to the CA HSR plan, which Musk opposes. That being the case, investing money in further studies seems like a dumb plan. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there are extraordinary claims in Musk's proposal with no evidence backing them up, so the onus is probably on him.

tod222 13y ago
> it isn't at all a real proposal, but rather a sleight of hand to reduce buy-in to the CA HSR plan, which Musk opposes. Absolutely. People familiar with the tech industry should recognize this pattern: Announce a vaporware [1] product as part of a FUD [2] campaign against the enemy. When considered in this way, Musk's actions with Hyperloop make a lot of sense. This is a classic FUD move against CA HSR. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt
- 9999 13y ago
  In what way are Musk's criticisms of the CA HSR plan FUD? Frankly, the HSR plan is a dud, and his criticisms are largely, if not entirely, valid. The cost is astronomically high, as a result of that the ticket costs will be greater than airfare. The route they've chosen also means that the journey will take far longer than it should. Would you actually consider taking a 2 hour 38 minute train trip from LA to SF at > $200 round-trip? Even if Musk's Hyperloop proposal remains only a proposal, if nothing else it should give people serious pause about the existing plan, and hopefully force a revision of it. The route through Palmdale is utterly pointless, tacks on a dozen minutes to a trip that's already too long, and exists largely to satisfy NIMBYs and give fat checks to a bunch of property speculators. That particular element of the HSR plan reeks of cowardice, corruption and graft. Consider this as an alternative: http://www.cahsrblog.com/2013/06/the-truth-about-tejon/ http://www.cahsrblog.com/2013/06/the-truth-about-tejon/ Musk's opposition to the existing plan is well reasoned and rational. Calling it FUD is itself a sort of FUD.
  - icambron 13y ago
    > In what way are Musk's criticisms of the CA HSR plan FUD? No one is saying they were. The parent and grandparent are saying the Hyperloop announcement is FUD. > if nothing else it should give people serious pause about the existing plan, and hopefully force a revision of it. So, at the very least, the uncertainty and doubt parts of FUD? Edit: s/fear/doubt