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> Apache and nginx => C > Tomcat, Jetty => Java Okay, if you are going to throw in Tomcat & Jetty, you should also throw in the likes of lighttpd, mongrel2, et

by cbsmith 13y ago

> Apache and nginx => C > Tomcat, Jetty => Java Okay, if you are going to throw in Tomcat & Jetty, you should also throw in the likes of lighttpd, mongrel2, etc., all of which are written in C. Pretty much all the load balancers/reverse proxies are written in C too. Hmm.... is it maybe possible that it isn't always better to use C++ instead of C? > IIS => C++/C# Yup, the one outlier no doubt owes about 0% of its success to its tech stack. In general, if you don't work at Google and want a C++ web server on anything other than Windows, you are looking at a C++ server framework that has an embedded HTTP stack (tntnet, Wt, etc.). > If developers aren't forced to use it, then they won't use it, even if made available. I know. I spend all my time watching them because if I don't they just start doing everything in assembly. > That is my hope, after all we only need a few generations of developers and then the issue is taken care of by itself. I think you missed my point. ;-)

pjmlp 13y ago
> > Apache and nginx => C > Tomcat, Jetty => Java > Okay, if you are going to throw in Tomcat & Jetty, you should also throw in the likes of lighttpd, mongrel2, etc., all of which are written in C. Pretty much all the load balancers/reverse proxies are written in C too. Hmm.... is it maybe possible that it isn't always better to use C++ instead of C? No, they were developed by open source Linux guys that only care about C in what concerns compiled languages. C++ was always badly received by the Linux community, in contrast with commercial UNIXes. > IIS => C++/C# > Yup, the one outlier no doubt owes about 0% of its success to its tech stack. In general, if you don't work at Google and want a C++ web server on anything other than Windows, you are looking at a C++ server framework that has an embedded HTTP stack (tntnet, Wt, etc.). Yes, nothing like contributing to have more insecure servers around. >> That is my hope, after all we only need a few generations of developers and then the issue is taken care of by itself. > I think you missed my point. ;-) I surely got your point, but it is not about Darwin of languages, rather of developers.
- cbsmith 13y ago
  > No, they were developed by open source Linux guys that only care about C in what concerns compiled languages. > C++ was always badly received by the Linux community, in contrast with commercial UNIXes. You mean like KDE, Firefox, OpenOffice, OpenCV, VLC, bitcoin... heck even gparted is a C++ app. The kernel developers obviously have a bias against C++ (and they'd argue that it is a justified bias). User space is a different land. > Yes, nothing like contributing to have more insecure servers around. ? Not sure your point here... > I surely got your point, but it is not about Darwin of languages, rather of developers. > I surely got your point, but it is not about Darwin of languages, rather of developers. My point was about Darwinian forces applied to language or developers. I was responding to your point about OS vendors not being left around. It would appear that, for whatever reason, going with something other than C or C++ for your base OS doesn't seem to result in good survival odds.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    >> No, they were developed by open source Linux guys that only care about C in what concerns compiled languages. > C++ was always badly received by the Linux community, in contrast with commercial UNIXes. >You mean like KDE, Firefox, OpenOffice, OpenCV, VLC, bitcoin... heck even gparted is a C++ app. >The kernel developers obviously have a bias against C++ (and they'd argue that it is a justified bias). User space is a different land. I use Linux since 1995, and was for some time a Gtkmm contributor in the early days. I know how it feels to be a C++ developer in Linux land.
    - cbsmith 13y ago
      > I use Linux since 1995, and was for some time a Gtkmm contributor in the early days. > I know how it feels to be a C++ developer in Linux land. The GNOME crowd was self selected to be a bunch of "C not C++" bigots. The KDE community was quite different (even if MOQ is an abomination ;-). The only community I can think of that would be more hostile to C++ is the kernel devs. I don't think your experiences are accurately reflective of the larger community. Particularly as C++ has improved (really, pre-gcc 3.0 there wasn't a good C++ compiler, and pre-2000 hardly anybody understood RAII, so C++ was kind of a pain), the larger community's attitude has changed. You can see this reflected in the success of the Boost project.
      - pjmlp 13y ago
        Coming from Turbo Pascal background I tend to be very critic of unsafe by design nature of C and C++. Specially given my focus in compiler design during the university, which allowed me to have a broad focus and experience in many languages, the average HN crowd might not be aware of. Having said this, I was already coding in C++ in MS-DOS around 1993 (Turbo C++) and only used plain C when forced to do so. So I have been part of the C++ community since the early PC compilers were available, and experienced this C vs C++ for quite some years now. The funny part is remember the performance complaints back then about C and C++, that nowadays people state in HN about languages trying to replace them. Oh, and I really like Boost.
- deleted 13y ago
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by cbsmith 13y ago

pjmlp 13y ago

> > Apache and nginx => C > Tomcat, Jetty => Java > Okay, if you are going to throw in Tomcat & Jetty, you should also throw in the likes of lighttpd, mongrel2, etc., all of which are written in C. Pretty much all the load balancers/reverse proxies are written in C too. Hmm.... is it maybe possible that it isn't always better to use C++ instead of C? No, they were developed by open source Linux guys that only care about C in what concerns compiled languages. C++ was always badly received by the Linux community, in contrast with commercial UNIXes. > IIS => C++/C# > Yup, the one outlier no doubt owes about 0% of its success to its tech stack. In general, if you don't work at Google and want a C++ web server on anything other than Windows, you are looking at a C++ server framework that has an embedded HTTP stack (tntnet, Wt, etc.). Yes, nothing like contributing to have more insecure servers around. >> That is my hope, after all we only need a few generations of developers and then the issue is taken care of by itself. > I think you missed my point. ;-) I surely got your point, but it is not about Darwin of languages, rather of developers.

cbsmith 13y ago
> No, they were developed by open source Linux guys that only care about C in what concerns compiled languages. > C++ was always badly received by the Linux community, in contrast with commercial UNIXes. You mean like KDE, Firefox, OpenOffice, OpenCV, VLC, bitcoin... heck even gparted is a C++ app. The kernel developers obviously have a bias against C++ (and they'd argue that it is a justified bias). User space is a different land. > Yes, nothing like contributing to have more insecure servers around. ? Not sure your point here... > I surely got your point, but it is not about Darwin of languages, rather of developers. > I surely got your point, but it is not about Darwin of languages, rather of developers. My point was about Darwinian forces applied to language or developers. I was responding to your point about OS vendors not being left around. It would appear that, for whatever reason, going with something other than C or C++ for your base OS doesn't seem to result in good survival odds.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  >> No, they were developed by open source Linux guys that only care about C in what concerns compiled languages. > C++ was always badly received by the Linux community, in contrast with commercial UNIXes. >You mean like KDE, Firefox, OpenOffice, OpenCV, VLC, bitcoin... heck even gparted is a C++ app. >The kernel developers obviously have a bias against C++ (and they'd argue that it is a justified bias). User space is a different land. I use Linux since 1995, and was for some time a Gtkmm contributor in the early days. I know how it feels to be a C++ developer in Linux land.
  - cbsmith 13y ago
    > I use Linux since 1995, and was for some time a Gtkmm contributor in the early days. > I know how it feels to be a C++ developer in Linux land. The GNOME crowd was self selected to be a bunch of "C not C++" bigots. The KDE community was quite different (even if MOQ is an abomination ;-). The only community I can think of that would be more hostile to C++ is the kernel devs. I don't think your experiences are accurately reflective of the larger community. Particularly as C++ has improved (really, pre-gcc 3.0 there wasn't a good C++ compiler, and pre-2000 hardly anybody understood RAII, so C++ was kind of a pain), the larger community's attitude has changed. You can see this reflected in the success of the Boost project.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      Coming from Turbo Pascal background I tend to be very critic of unsafe by design nature of C and C++. Specially given my focus in compiler design during the university, which allowed me to have a broad focus and experience in many languages, the average HN crowd might not be aware of. Having said this, I was already coding in C++ in MS-DOS around 1993 (Turbo C++) and only used plain C when forced to do so. So I have been part of the C++ community since the early PC compilers were available, and experienced this C vs C++ for quite some years now. The funny part is remember the performance complaints back then about C and C++, that nowadays people state in HN about languages trying to replace them. Oh, and I really like Boost.
deleted 13y ago
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