4 ms·

Side note: what's with the over-the-top political correctness epidemic on HN? Every time somebody talks about a random programmer it's "her" or "herself". I a

by vadman 13y ago

Side note: what's with the over-the-top political correctness epidemic on HN? Every time somebody talks about a random programmer it's "her" or "herself". I am all for gender equality and more women in tech, but this sort of stuff just seems strange.

cobrausn 13y ago
Er, not sure about 'over-the-top', but I noticed the same thing regarding third edition Dungeons and Dragons. When they were trying to broaden the appeal to more than just, well, the traditional AD&D player, all the pronouns in the new books became female when talking about the player or player character.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mrbrowning 13y ago
What's stranger about it than using the male pronoun?
- vadman 13y ago
  In this particular scenario, it's strange because the probability of it is so low. Maybe you are surrounded by lady hackers who are fond of military tech (tell me where you work, I'll apply), but statistically they are such a rare breed that using "she" in this case just looks like trying too hard. "Hey look at me, I am not a brogrammer, I said 'she'!". JMO.
  - talmir 13y ago
    I dont find it odd. In my team, out of eight members, we have two female programmers and a female scrummaster.
  - mrbrowning 13y ago
    I don't know, I'm kind of skeptical that your language reflects statistical realities at all times. Have you never described something with the adverb "probably" that actually had a less than fifty percent chance of occurring? If not, I'm not sure what it is about this particular usage that merits the increased scrutiny.
papercrane 13y ago
Sentence could have been made gender neutral pretty easily: > Imagine your first day at a new job, and the programmer next to you straps themselves into a replica of an F-16 cockpit to get their work done. I do feel that using a gender does make it read better though. You may just be falling for confirmation bias. Anyone out there want to take a random sampling of these types of sentences and see if there actually is a gender bias?
- vadman 13y ago
  Perhaps I am. Given the prevalence of males in our industry, maybe every "she" just sticks out more than it should.
  - papercrane 13y ago
    I'd actually be interested to see if there is a prevalence to use one gender over another for imaginary people. Not sure what it would mean, but it'd be interesting. Even more interesting if there was comparable data for people in other industries.
- ebbv 13y ago
  Except that technically "their work done" is improper grammar when your subject ("the programmer") is singular.
  - papercrane 13y ago
    Are you sure? Because people use 'their' as a singular all the time when talking about someone of an unspecified gender, and the dictionary seems to agree with that: "belonging to or associated with a person of unspecified sex: she heard someone blow their nose loudly" http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/their?q=their http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/their?q=the...
  - qu4z-2 13y ago
    At the end of the day grammar is convention, and 'singular they' seems like a sensible one. (in part as it's got a long history, in part as I don't know a better alternative)
rewind 13y ago
Over-the-top epidemic??? Pretty silly exaggeration. In a male-dominated industry, you'll never be accused of gender bias as a male if you use feminine subjects in your sentences. So if we say "he" all the time, we're gender-biased, and if we say "she" all the time, it's an epidemic?
tommi 13y ago
I haven't noticed that but odd since "he" is gender specific pronoun while "she" is not. To me, the use of "her" is a the opposite of gender equality. (I'm not a native English speaker)
JohnBooty 13y ago
I can't speak for anybody else but for me, it's a conscious choice. I don't see it as a big deal. Words like "over-the-top" and "epidemic" seem a bit hyperbolic, don't they? For whatever it's worth, I certainly don't think we're going to solve gender disparity merely by flipping a few pronouns. But what's the harm? I also added it for comic reasons. Imagine incorrectly assuming that the female programmer doesn't have chops or isn't "serious" about programming - and then you see her writing code like she's flying a fighter jet. At least to me, that was a funny case of confounded expectations.

by vadman 13y ago

cobrausn 13y ago

Er, not sure about 'over-the-top', but I noticed the same thing regarding third edition Dungeons and Dragons. When they were trying to broaden the appeal to more than just, well, the traditional AD&D player, all the pronouns in the new books became female when talking about the player or player character.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

mrbrowning 13y ago

What's stranger about it than using the male pronoun?

vadman 13y ago
In this particular scenario, it's strange because the probability of it is so low. Maybe you are surrounded by lady hackers who are fond of military tech (tell me where you work, I'll apply), but statistically they are such a rare breed that using "she" in this case just looks like trying too hard. "Hey look at me, I am not a brogrammer, I said 'she'!". JMO.
- talmir 13y ago
  I dont find it odd. In my team, out of eight members, we have two female programmers and a female scrummaster.
- mrbrowning 13y ago
  I don't know, I'm kind of skeptical that your language reflects statistical realities at all times. Have you never described something with the adverb "probably" that actually had a less than fifty percent chance of occurring? If not, I'm not sure what it is about this particular usage that merits the increased scrutiny.

papercrane 13y ago

Sentence could have been made gender neutral pretty easily: > Imagine your first day at a new job, and the programmer next to you straps themselves into a replica of an F-16 cockpit to get their work done. I do feel that using a gender does make it read better though. You may just be falling for confirmation bias. Anyone out there want to take a random sampling of these types of sentences and see if there actually is a gender bias?

vadman 13y ago
Perhaps I am. Given the prevalence of males in our industry, maybe every "she" just sticks out more than it should.
- papercrane 13y ago
  I'd actually be interested to see if there is a prevalence to use one gender over another for imaginary people. Not sure what it would mean, but it'd be interesting. Even more interesting if there was comparable data for people in other industries.
ebbv 13y ago
Except that technically "their work done" is improper grammar when your subject ("the programmer") is singular.
- papercrane 13y ago
  Are you sure? Because people use 'their' as a singular all the time when talking about someone of an unspecified gender, and the dictionary seems to agree with that: "belonging to or associated with a person of unspecified sex: she heard someone blow their nose loudly" http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/their?q=their http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/their?q=the...
- qu4z-2 13y ago
  At the end of the day grammar is convention, and 'singular they' seems like a sensible one. (in part as it's got a long history, in part as I don't know a better alternative)

rewind 13y ago

Over-the-top epidemic??? Pretty silly exaggeration. In a male-dominated industry, you'll never be accused of gender bias as a male if you use feminine subjects in your sentences. So if we say "he" all the time, we're gender-biased, and if we say "she" all the time, it's an epidemic?

tommi 13y ago

I haven't noticed that but odd since "he" is gender specific pronoun while "she" is not. To me, the use of "her" is a the opposite of gender equality. (I'm not a native English speaker)

JohnBooty 13y ago

I can't speak for anybody else but for me, it's a conscious choice. I don't see it as a big deal. Words like "over-the-top" and "epidemic" seem a bit hyperbolic, don't they? For whatever it's worth, I certainly don't think we're going to solve gender disparity merely by flipping a few pronouns. But what's the harm? I also added it for comic reasons. Imagine incorrectly assuming that the female programmer doesn't have chops or isn't "serious" about programming - and then you see her writing code like she's flying a fighter jet. At least to me, that was a funny case of confounded expectations.