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Hej from Sweden! Find me a US state (or area with equivalent population) with - national health care (dental might be exempted, but still capped after a certai

by tazjin 13y ago

Hej from Sweden! Find me a US state (or area with equivalent population) with - national health care (dental might be exempted, but still capped after a certain amount) - stable, cheap, state-subsidized public transport with great coverage - school system equivalent to Sweden (though Sweden does arguably not have the best one in Europe I still encounter many shocking things when speaking to Americans) - included in that: ability to go to university without being in debt for the rest of your life / without scholarships / without rich family - clean cities, low crime rates, low to non-existent amount of guns in circulation - widespread atheism, embracing science - widespread high bandwidth, affordable internet access I could list more things but I think this is enough for now. I'm not saying that all of these are without flaws or that we are the best at them, but the US lacking so many of these in a widespread manner makes me not consider it a first world country. Edit: I forgot a big one! - Employment security: No unfair terminations, regulated pay, overtime/nightshift/weekend pay regulated ... Edit 2: This is in response to a "dead" comment I got. In case you've got show-dead disabled here's the comment "..And where your tax rate is up to 60% of your income. http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/nov/16/sweden-tax-burd..." http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/nov/16/sweden-tax-burd... - polaris9000 Yes, our tax rates are much higher but that's not the whole story. If you compare average personal income between Sweden and the US (I couldn't find a source on median income) you have approximately 10k USD more in net-income in the US. I'm not an expert in finances so I won't try to adjust this for things like the gap between poor&rich (which would pull the US down a bit). How much of these 10k are gone after spending them on all the things we get delivered through our taxes? (Health care, subsidised public transport, education and so on) And one thing that doesn't directly affect everybody's life quality: How much better is our infrastructure (paid for / subsidised by taxes)? I'm speaking about everything ranging from streets to power grids to internet connections. How much more stability do we have in our lives and how much better is the average life satisfaction? I'm sure there is no canonical answer to any of these but I'm also sure that Sweden scores better on average (and remember that this was originally about Norway, which is doing much better than Sweden)

polaris9000 13y ago
..And where your tax rate is up to 60% of your income. http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/nov/16/sweden-tax-burden-welfare http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/nov/16/sweden-tax-burd...
- dalke 13y ago
  And your point is ...? Please bear in mind that 1) that number is the highest marginal tax bracket, only paid by those with the most income, and 2) it's actually 57% not the rounded up value of 60%. For comparison, the marginal tax rate for the highest tax bracket in the US was above 60% during 1932-1986, with a peak was 91% in 1946-1964. Of course you're mostly just sniping numbers, since that article you quoted also says Swedes say they are "very happy to pay high taxes because I know I am getting value for the money later on." In the US we pay for things directly which are, in Sweden, paid indirectly through taxes. Do you really care if you pay 5% less in taxes only to have to pay 10% of your income per year in health care?
  - polaris9000 13y ago
    My point is: It's absurd to be paying over half of your income in taxes, regardless of whether you are living in the United States or Sweden. What is the incentive for someone to get a higher paying job then? Just to pay higher taxes? What is the point then? With that being the case, we should all just earn the lowest possible income then.
  - ahomescu1 13y ago
    > Do you really care if you pay 5% less in taxes only to have to pay 10% of your income per year in health care? There is one difference: you can't shop around. It's probably not a problem in Sweden, but in a lot of other "government provides everything" countries, there's a huge variation in quality of government-provided services (like schooling and doctors). You might get stuck with a crappy doctor (because of geographical assignment), while there's a great one on the next street. If I can keep my 5%, I pick my own doctor (within my budget).
    - 13y ago
unclebob9000 13y ago
- And where your income tax is up to 60%: http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/nov/16/sweden-tax-burden-welfare http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/nov/16/sweden-tax-burd...
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jquery 13y ago
> but the US lacking so many of these in a widespread manner makes me not consider it a first world country. Cute. The inferiority complex is palpable. You create very specific custom goalposts for being a first-world country and then you just happen to meet them. Cheers mate, congrats on making your small nation a good place to live. Don't be so insecure.
- tazjin 13y ago
  Tell me what makes the US a better place to live, and don't say something like "freedom" or "democracy" (hah!).
  - jquery 13y ago
    It's not a list of policy tick-boxes that make the USA what it is. It's our enormous diversity. The USA is many countries that all live together as one. There are so many cultures here that all get along better here than they do anywhere else in the world. It's why our economic and cultural engines are the biggest in the world. Compared to the USA... Sweden is... provincial. And that's fine. You're doing well.
    - tazjin 13y ago
      Look at Germany! Much higher population density than the US at 1/4 (roughly, from memory) of the population.
      - noselasd 13y ago
        But as he said, the US is many things. It's not that hard to find an area the size of Germany in the US where the population density is the same or higher than in Germany - just as you'll find parts or states that has the population density of Sweden.
    - polymatter 13y ago
      The USA is significantly larger than Sweden in both geography and sheer numbers of people. This has an obvious effect on the absolute size of economic engine. If you take population into account then Sweden actually has a larger economy[1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nom...
polaris9000 13y ago
Those are all great points and credit to Sweden where credit is due. However, please take into account that your country's population is nearing 10 million whereas the US's population is over 300 million. What I am trying to say is: The programs that are working out so well for you may be much more difficult to implement in a country with a population the size of the US. Incidentally, I have no idea why my comments are being shadow-banned, but thanks for replying anyway.
- PeterisP 13y ago
  USA is comparable in size to EU, and USA states are comparable in size to EU countries, including Sweden. People living in some USA state have the right to decide to govern themselves more like Sweden - if they wish and vote so. It's important to attempt comparisons with a variety of places, since they might show which policy directions you might want to choose and which to avoid.
purplelobster 13y ago
As a Swede who's been in the US for 5 years, what you say is true, but it's more nuanced than that. If you're poor, Sweden is so much better than the US, not even in the same league. As a software developer though, you'll earn roughly twice as much, enough to cover all the benefits of living in Sweden and probably quite a bit more. Engineers and technical people are not paid what they're worth in Sweden, I have no idea why. But then again, you'll be wealthy in a hugely unequal society. The benefit of the Swedish system is that everybody gets those benefits and safety net, improving the society as a whole. Here are a few other benefits of living in the US: - THE place to be if you're in tech, there will never be an Apple or Google coming out of Sweden unfortunately - More interesting career opportunities, you can do anything you want (if you're prepared to move around) - Much more, better and affordable food - Going out, eating, drinking, doing stuff in general doesn't break the bank - You're not patronized in the same way (systembolaget, overbearing regulations etc, "we know what's best for you") - Better weather (depending on where you are) - A society much more friendly to immigrants (maybe counter intuitive). This is a big one. As a native Swede, you don't realize how much discrimination there is in Swedish society, even for highly educated professionals. People have to change their last name to something Swedish-sounding just to get an interview. In the US, nobody gives a shit where you're from, as long as you know what you're doing. All in all though, I've decided to move back, for many of the reasons you listed, as well as a relatively sane political system, move vacation, parental leave and ease of travel. The biggest factor though is being closer to family and friends.
- Daniel_Newby 13y ago
  > Engineers and technical people are not paid what they're worth in Sweden, ... How much does that have to do with the extreme risk of hiring? (Owing to the difficulty of firing.)
  - tazjin 13y ago
    That's what probationary periods are for, if you can't evaluate a person in 6 or so months of actual work you are probably doing something drastically wrong.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
rickjames28 13y ago
In your bubble, you believe all of those things are good things accepted by the HN hive mind. Hilarious.

by tazjin 13y ago

polaris9000 13y ago

..And where your tax rate is up to 60% of your income. http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/nov/16/sweden-tax-burden-welfare http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/nov/16/sweden-tax-burd...

dalke 13y ago
And your point is ...? Please bear in mind that 1) that number is the highest marginal tax bracket, only paid by those with the most income, and 2) it's actually 57% not the rounded up value of 60%. For comparison, the marginal tax rate for the highest tax bracket in the US was above 60% during 1932-1986, with a peak was 91% in 1946-1964. Of course you're mostly just sniping numbers, since that article you quoted also says Swedes say they are "very happy to pay high taxes because I know I am getting value for the money later on." In the US we pay for things directly which are, in Sweden, paid indirectly through taxes. Do you really care if you pay 5% less in taxes only to have to pay 10% of your income per year in health care?
- polaris9000 13y ago
  My point is: It's absurd to be paying over half of your income in taxes, regardless of whether you are living in the United States or Sweden. What is the incentive for someone to get a higher paying job then? Just to pay higher taxes? What is the point then? With that being the case, we should all just earn the lowest possible income then.
- ahomescu1 13y ago
  > Do you really care if you pay 5% less in taxes only to have to pay 10% of your income per year in health care? There is one difference: you can't shop around. It's probably not a problem in Sweden, but in a lot of other "government provides everything" countries, there's a huge variation in quality of government-provided services (like schooling and doctors). You might get stuck with a crappy doctor (because of geographical assignment), while there's a great one on the next street. If I can keep my 5%, I pick my own doctor (within my budget).
  - 13y ago

unclebob9000 13y ago

- And where your income tax is up to 60%: http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/nov/16/sweden-tax-burden-welfare http://www.theguardian.com/money/2008/nov/16/sweden-tax-burd...

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

jquery 13y ago

> but the US lacking so many of these in a widespread manner makes me not consider it a first world country. Cute. The inferiority complex is palpable. You create very specific custom goalposts for being a first-world country and then you just happen to meet them. Cheers mate, congrats on making your small nation a good place to live. Don't be so insecure.

tazjin 13y ago
Tell me what makes the US a better place to live, and don't say something like "freedom" or "democracy" (hah!).
- jquery 13y ago
  It's not a list of policy tick-boxes that make the USA what it is. It's our enormous diversity. The USA is many countries that all live together as one. There are so many cultures here that all get along better here than they do anywhere else in the world. It's why our economic and cultural engines are the biggest in the world. Compared to the USA... Sweden is... provincial. And that's fine. You're doing well.
  - tazjin 13y ago
    Look at Germany! Much higher population density than the US at 1/4 (roughly, from memory) of the population.
    - noselasd 13y ago
      But as he said, the US is many things. It's not that hard to find an area the size of Germany in the US where the population density is the same or higher than in Germany - just as you'll find parts or states that has the population density of Sweden.
  - polymatter 13y ago
    The USA is significantly larger than Sweden in both geography and sheer numbers of people. This has an obvious effect on the absolute size of economic engine. If you take population into account then Sweden actually has a larger economy[1] [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nom...

polaris9000 13y ago

Those are all great points and credit to Sweden where credit is due. However, please take into account that your country's population is nearing 10 million whereas the US's population is over 300 million. What I am trying to say is: The programs that are working out so well for you may be much more difficult to implement in a country with a population the size of the US. Incidentally, I have no idea why my comments are being shadow-banned, but thanks for replying anyway.

PeterisP 13y ago
USA is comparable in size to EU, and USA states are comparable in size to EU countries, including Sweden. People living in some USA state have the right to decide to govern themselves more like Sweden - if they wish and vote so. It's important to attempt comparisons with a variety of places, since they might show which policy directions you might want to choose and which to avoid.

purplelobster 13y ago

As a Swede who's been in the US for 5 years, what you say is true, but it's more nuanced than that. If you're poor, Sweden is so much better than the US, not even in the same league. As a software developer though, you'll earn roughly twice as much, enough to cover all the benefits of living in Sweden and probably quite a bit more. Engineers and technical people are not paid what they're worth in Sweden, I have no idea why. But then again, you'll be wealthy in a hugely unequal society. The benefit of the Swedish system is that everybody gets those benefits and safety net, improving the society as a whole. Here are a few other benefits of living in the US: - THE place to be if you're in tech, there will never be an Apple or Google coming out of Sweden unfortunately - More interesting career opportunities, you can do anything you want (if you're prepared to move around) - Much more, better and affordable food - Going out, eating, drinking, doing stuff in general doesn't break the bank - You're not patronized in the same way (systembolaget, overbearing regulations etc, "we know what's best for you") - Better weather (depending on where you are) - A society much more friendly to immigrants (maybe counter intuitive). This is a big one. As a native Swede, you don't realize how much discrimination there is in Swedish society, even for highly educated professionals. People have to change their last name to something Swedish-sounding just to get an interview. In the US, nobody gives a shit where you're from, as long as you know what you're doing. All in all though, I've decided to move back, for many of the reasons you listed, as well as a relatively sane political system, move vacation, parental leave and ease of travel. The biggest factor though is being closer to family and friends.

Daniel_Newby 13y ago
> Engineers and technical people are not paid what they're worth in Sweden, ... How much does that have to do with the extreme risk of hiring? (Owing to the difficulty of firing.)
- tazjin 13y ago
  That's what probationary periods are for, if you can't evaluate a person in 6 or so months of actual work you are probably doing something drastically wrong.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

rickjames28 13y ago

In your bubble, you believe all of those things are good things accepted by the HN hive mind. Hilarious.