5 ms·

1. Write program that prints prime numbers below 100. 2. ? 3. Profit! Interviews are a two-way street. If you're looking to hire an experienced developer and

1. Write program that prints prime numbers below 100. 2. ? 3. Profit! Interviews are a two-way street. If you're looking to hire an experienced developer and the best you can do is ask him to do something that he'll probably never have reason to do on the job, you're sending a pretty strong message about your company. If you're going to ask somebody to code (or solve a problem) as part of the interview process, there's nothing worse than being lazy in creating the task. "Print prime numbers below 100" falls under the lazy category.

twic 13y ago
If the best you can do is to set a trivial programming problem, then indeed, that is deeply unimpressive. Happily, that is not what the article is suggesting, nor what anyone actually does. The article gives three steps: first, a trivial programming problem, second, a challenging programming problem (here delivered as homework), and thirdly, a face-to-face interview to check cultural fit. The purpose of the trivial problem, as explained in the article, and explained by anyone else who has ever advocated this approach, is simply to weed out people who just cannot code at all, and to do that early and cheaply. My current employer uses a trivial programming problem like this as an early screen (it comes after our recruitment guy has read their CV, but before we put them on the phone with a developer). Therefore, i, and many of my colleagues, are experienced developers who have been given a trivial programming problem to solve. It did not any of us a message which put us off the company. I have not heard of anyone being asked to do this test and losing interest in working for us as a consequence. On the contrary, i was pleased when i was given the problem as an initial screen, because it told me that the company was serious about hiring people who can actually code, which puts them head and shoulders above many employers!
- VLM 13y ago
  > check cultural fit. I see lots of references to "culture" in hiring comments, so I'm not trying to call you specifically out, but what does it mean? It always bristles me, like if your criteria is "white men only need apply" well just outright say it, don't tiptoe around it. As a suggestion to anyone on HN who does hiring, if for example you're not going to hire my wife because of her ethnicity or because she's a woman, just put it in the job ad and save everyone involved a lot of time and tiptoeing around "culture".
  - gregors 13y ago
    I read it as "people from Standford aged 19-26"
    - VLM 13y ago
      See that's what causes frustration about "culture BS". OK fine it means you won't hire my wife because of ethnic reasons and gender reasons. Or wait, does it really mean you won't hire me because I'm a perfectly good white Germanic guy but I didn't go to Stanford. Or WRT not hiring my wife, does it mean my daughter need not apply because of her gender is still a cultural mismatch, her being a girl and all that, or is it enough of a cultural match that her dad is a pasty white germanic dude so it could be worth her time to apply? Its somewhat frustrating that "what defines a good developer" to a boss might be being a white male brogrammer from Stanford. But whats even worse is the uncertainty of not understanding what the criteria even is. Is it only whites need apply, or only men need apply, or both, or neither? That is what makes it even more aggravating. Its not 1950 anymore boys, its a multicultural world, so demanding a certain culture/demographic fit is going to result in epic fail if any competitor is smart enough to (gasp!) hire women or people of color or dare I suggest it, non Stanford grads. Startups and people who hire should realize that they're turning off good applicants when they start talking about "culture" because people of color are going to assume you mean white people only, women are going to assume you mean hire men only, etc. As a business decision its just a bad move.
      - penrod 13y ago
        If a company doesn't want to hire me (or my wife or my daughters) because I'm not a Stanford grad from the right demographic, that's absolutely fine because I don't want to work for a company run by idiots. In fact, the louder and more explicit they are about their dumbass culture the better, because it makes it easier for me to avoid wasting my time with them.
  - Killswitch 13y ago
    I outright ignore any job postings talking about "cultural fit"
artmageddon 13y ago
> Interviews are a two-way street. If you're looking to hire an experienced developer and the best you can do is ask him to do something that he'll probably never have reason to do on the job, you're sending a pretty strong message about your company. I know others will probably disagree, but I feel this way about brain-teaser questions. I remember one very specifically from a ex-Microsoft employee who interviewed me: "If you're alone on a deserted island and you have two unmarked jugs, one that can hold 3L of water and the other 5L of water, how would you make sure you had exactly had 4L of water?" To his credit, he helped me through the question and I was able to figure it out.. but the first minute was spent trying not to be a smartass and ask "Is this a problem that programmers in this company frequently have?" (I did get the job fwiw)
- gregors 13y ago
  Brain teaser questions are great at finding candidates who have heard the brainteaser before. They are useless at finding people who are good at coding. Even Google accepts this now.
  - Killswitch 13y ago
    I would ask why if I had 8 L of water containers why I would try to figure out how to have no more than half of that and just fill both jugs, then I'd say that's a stupid question and has nothing to do if I can code or not. I hate these stupid job interview things just be frank and lets talk about my skills and what you're looking for, not stupid brain teasers, fizzbuzz, or anything like that.
- VLM 13y ago
  That's technically a memorization test or a trivia test, because its really easy if you remember the trick, and a total PITA if you don't remember the trick. If I recall correctly the trick is something along the lines of pouring a full 5L into a empty 3L and when the 3L is full there's 2L left in the 5L, so then you dump out the 3L then pour the 2L in the 5L into the 3L such that the 3L contains 2L of H2O, and then refill the 5L and pour the 5L into the 2/3 full 3L till its full such that about 4L remain in the 5L bottle. Ta Da, I've just proven I can memorize meaningless trivia, does that mean I am now a C++ developer or whatever they were interviewing for? If you started life as a chemist this is kind of a lab joke as in its funny but if anyone in the lab tried something this wasteful of time and product or risky of contamination if you reuse the product, they're too stupid/lazy to work in your lab. The correct answer is supposed to be walk to the stockroom and ask for a 4L container. Its about as useful as a practical programming test as asking who won the 1984 baseball world series, in other words a complete waste of time. Fizzbuzz at least is an excellent test of the modulus operator (oh boy is that ever useful to me on a daily basis LOL) and a so so test of control block and conditional knowledge which is actually useful on a daily basis.

twic 13y ago

If the best you can do is to set a trivial programming problem, then indeed, that is deeply unimpressive. Happily, that is not what the article is suggesting, nor what anyone actually does. The article gives three steps: first, a trivial programming problem, second, a challenging programming problem (here delivered as homework), and thirdly, a face-to-face interview to check cultural fit. The purpose of the trivial problem, as explained in the article, and explained by anyone else who has ever advocated this approach, is simply to weed out people who just cannot code at all, and to do that early and cheaply. My current employer uses a trivial programming problem like this as an early screen (it comes after our recruitment guy has read their CV, but before we put them on the phone with a developer). Therefore, i, and many of my colleagues, are experienced developers who have been given a trivial programming problem to solve. It did not any of us a message which put us off the company. I have not heard of anyone being asked to do this test and losing interest in working for us as a consequence. On the contrary, i was pleased when i was given the problem as an initial screen, because it told me that the company was serious about hiring people who can actually code, which puts them head and shoulders above many employers!

VLM 13y ago
> check cultural fit. I see lots of references to "culture" in hiring comments, so I'm not trying to call you specifically out, but what does it mean? It always bristles me, like if your criteria is "white men only need apply" well just outright say it, don't tiptoe around it. As a suggestion to anyone on HN who does hiring, if for example you're not going to hire my wife because of her ethnicity or because she's a woman, just put it in the job ad and save everyone involved a lot of time and tiptoeing around "culture".
- gregors 13y ago
  I read it as "people from Standford aged 19-26"
  - VLM 13y ago
    See that's what causes frustration about "culture BS". OK fine it means you won't hire my wife because of ethnic reasons and gender reasons. Or wait, does it really mean you won't hire me because I'm a perfectly good white Germanic guy but I didn't go to Stanford. Or WRT not hiring my wife, does it mean my daughter need not apply because of her gender is still a cultural mismatch, her being a girl and all that, or is it enough of a cultural match that her dad is a pasty white germanic dude so it could be worth her time to apply? Its somewhat frustrating that "what defines a good developer" to a boss might be being a white male brogrammer from Stanford. But whats even worse is the uncertainty of not understanding what the criteria even is. Is it only whites need apply, or only men need apply, or both, or neither? That is what makes it even more aggravating. Its not 1950 anymore boys, its a multicultural world, so demanding a certain culture/demographic fit is going to result in epic fail if any competitor is smart enough to (gasp!) hire women or people of color or dare I suggest it, non Stanford grads. Startups and people who hire should realize that they're turning off good applicants when they start talking about "culture" because people of color are going to assume you mean white people only, women are going to assume you mean hire men only, etc. As a business decision its just a bad move.
    - penrod 13y ago
      If a company doesn't want to hire me (or my wife or my daughters) because I'm not a Stanford grad from the right demographic, that's absolutely fine because I don't want to work for a company run by idiots. In fact, the louder and more explicit they are about their dumbass culture the better, because it makes it easier for me to avoid wasting my time with them.
- Killswitch 13y ago
  I outright ignore any job postings talking about "cultural fit"

artmageddon 13y ago

> Interviews are a two-way street. If you're looking to hire an experienced developer and the best you can do is ask him to do something that he'll probably never have reason to do on the job, you're sending a pretty strong message about your company. I know others will probably disagree, but I feel this way about brain-teaser questions. I remember one very specifically from a ex-Microsoft employee who interviewed me: "If you're alone on a deserted island and you have two unmarked jugs, one that can hold 3L of water and the other 5L of water, how would you make sure you had exactly had 4L of water?" To his credit, he helped me through the question and I was able to figure it out.. but the first minute was spent trying not to be a smartass and ask "Is this a problem that programmers in this company frequently have?" (I did get the job fwiw)

gregors 13y ago
Brain teaser questions are great at finding candidates who have heard the brainteaser before. They are useless at finding people who are good at coding. Even Google accepts this now.
- Killswitch 13y ago
  I would ask why if I had 8 L of water containers why I would try to figure out how to have no more than half of that and just fill both jugs, then I'd say that's a stupid question and has nothing to do if I can code or not. I hate these stupid job interview things just be frank and lets talk about my skills and what you're looking for, not stupid brain teasers, fizzbuzz, or anything like that.
VLM 13y ago
That's technically a memorization test or a trivia test, because its really easy if you remember the trick, and a total PITA if you don't remember the trick. If I recall correctly the trick is something along the lines of pouring a full 5L into a empty 3L and when the 3L is full there's 2L left in the 5L, so then you dump out the 3L then pour the 2L in the 5L into the 3L such that the 3L contains 2L of H2O, and then refill the 5L and pour the 5L into the 2/3 full 3L till its full such that about 4L remain in the 5L bottle. Ta Da, I've just proven I can memorize meaningless trivia, does that mean I am now a C++ developer or whatever they were interviewing for? If you started life as a chemist this is kind of a lab joke as in its funny but if anyone in the lab tried something this wasteful of time and product or risky of contamination if you reuse the product, they're too stupid/lazy to work in your lab. The correct answer is supposed to be walk to the stockroom and ask for a 4L container. Its about as useful as a practical programming test as asking who won the 1984 baseball world series, in other words a complete waste of time. Fizzbuzz at least is an excellent test of the modulus operator (oh boy is that ever useful to me on a daily basis LOL) and a so so test of control block and conditional knowledge which is actually useful on a daily basis.