6 ms·

I grew up in a former East Block country. Back then we had medical centers. If you were sick, you went there and they gave you something. Most of the time the

by aluhut 13y ago

I grew up in a former East Block country. Back then we had medical centers. If you were sick, you went there and they gave you something. Most of the time the solution was: Antibiotics. Because I was sick quite often, I can say I grew up on Antibiotics. When we moved to West Europe my mother made the mistake of chosing a doctor from our country (so she could uderstand what she says). So I continued to get antibiotics until I got an bronchitis. Two weeks had passed until the doctor decided it was a bronchitis and not "just" one of my usual sick-phases (that she also treated with antibiotics). I spend additional two weeks getting more of the same antibiotic. It got worse. Finaly she decided that it may be useful to make an radiographic examination. Lucily the doctor there realised that I had pneumonia and changed my medication. I have not been to a doctor for over 20 years since. I did not take anything besides some aspirine when I hit my head skiing 8 years ago. I don't know how this is possible after my very hard childhood but I just don't get sick anymore. I am very sure that I'll not make the same mistake of letting the doctors solve everything with the hammer when my children get sick.

elmuchoprez 13y ago
While I can appreciate your situation, those last two paragraphs read with the same kind of anecdotal logic that lead people to the conclusion that vaccinations do more harm than good.
- aluhut 13y ago
  It wasn't ment that way. The vaccination conspiracy theorists are the opposite evil here. They are even worse. I didn't want to say that I would not give my kid antibiotics. This is bullshit. But I will change the doctor if his only solution is antibiotics. I had that situation already with my girlfriend. She is ill pretty often. She works in a kindergarden and parents tent to get rid of their sick kids by sending them there. She had to change her doctor because it just did not work out and sometimes the solution is simply to stay home for a few days and drink some warm tea. There is no easy solution here. You can't say that you refuse all kinds of medication but you have to find out which doctor is really trying to help you out here and this can be only done through experience. I for myself am just lucky. I can't say how but it works. If I ever get really sick and the 3 days on tea won't help, I will go to the doctor I trust and get some medication to cure it.
  - vidarh 13y ago
    I'm Norwegian. Norwegian doctors at least used to be extremely careful about anti-biotics. I now live in the UK, and the doctors here often prescribe anti-biotics after telling us we most likely have a viral infection. I think the main thing is to challenge them to explain why. If they can't give a coherent explanation, ask them to explain to you what they think the risks are of waiting. Most of the time when doctors here want to prescribe anti-biotics their answer is pretty much "just in case I missed something and it's actually a bacterial infection", and usually they'll then concede that if I'm ok with it, I can wait it out a couple of days and only take antibiotics if things doesn't start to improve with minimal risk. A couple of times the explanation has been that they've often seen specific symptoms exacerbated by a simultaneous bacterial infection, but again their response has been the same: if I don't keep getting worse, I'm fine to wait. The only time I've ended up taking the antibiotics on offer was when I came in once spitting blood and with massive white lumps at the back of my throat (from whence the blood came, as they were ripped open when I coughed). Yay. Even then the doctor assumed, probably correctly, that it most likely was a viral infection that was making the rounds - she had a steady stream of the same symptoms that week -, but pointed out that given that my throat was so swollen and painful that I could hardly even drink, and the coughing of blood, if she was wrong and it got worse without antibiotics, next stop might be the hospital. But of course few people care - they don't question the reasons for prescriptions at all. Part of the high level of prescription of antibiotics in the UK is because of the health system here - they're paid per roughly per patient (adjusted for patient age, morbidity levels in the area they operate in, and a number of other factors meant to adjust for the cost of providing service, but the point is they are not paid per patient visit). If they get me out the door quickly and I don't come back, that's a win for them, so they are incentivised to get me well, but there's no downside to them short term from doing so by prescribing me something there might only be a 5% change that will make a difference to me at all - that's five percent fewer repeat visits at no real risk to them. Few patients will complain, as the prescription cost is low, and when they get better in a few days, many of them will assume it was the antibiotics and so assume the doctor was right. It's hard to set rules that prevent these kind of incentives, other than monitoring of whether or not they are in line with guidelines and/or whether or not they prescribe grossly more than the baseline.
swombat 13y ago
I don't know how this is possible after my very hard childhood but I just don't get sick anymore. Sounds like whatever your doctors did worked miracles. No serious illness for 20 years? If this experiment could be repeated at scale, and proved to apply to others, everyone should receive the same antibiotics treatment you had!
- aluhut 13y ago
  I don't know if 15/16 years of badly cured diseases with a pneumonia finale grande are really a solution here. I don't even want to start with the side effects. But yeah, funny ;)
- VLM 13y ago
  Perhaps his parents smoked. Mine did. All kinds of respiratory problems as a kid, mysterious miracle cure at 19 when I moved out.
  - aluhut 13y ago
    No my parents never smoke. I did though.
a8da6b0c91d 13y ago
If you read Dr. Art Ayers he says antibiotic usage is almost a catastrophe for a person's health. The gut biome never fully recovers and the consequence is all kinds of strange inflammatory diseases, which of course are now epidemic in the West. http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/ http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/
- dspillett 13y ago
  Overuse of antibiotics has also been linked to some "slow development" abnormalities in children, it is suspected (or so a report mentioned in New Scientist says...) this is due to disruption the gut biome which in some cases can for a time disrupt how much energy the young'n' can extra from food which as some developmental stages could be quite a inconvenience. IIRC that report suggested that most of the affect kids seemed to catch up eventually, but it is probably something that warrants more detailed investigation.
protomyth 13y ago
IHS (Indian Health Service) would give you anti-biotics when it suspected strep throat (or any other sickness) they would prescribe anti-biotics even though their tests would take 3 days[1]. If it wasn't strep, they wouldn't tell you to stop taking the anti-biotics. Glad to see we followed the practices of East Block countries. 1) send to government contracted lab, get sample test, send back result - gotta love government contracts. I'm told someone got an even bigger contract to speed up the testing or allow onsite tests.
- sagarm 13y ago
  If you start an antibiotic course, it's important to finish it. Otherwise you will have exerted some selective pressure on bacteria in your body without making sure you killed them all, leaving only the resistant bacteria to flourish.
  - protomyth 13y ago
    Didn't know that - wouldn't have mattered much, they never really followed up. I do wonder how many people took anti-biotics for no good reason.

by aluhut 13y ago

elmuchoprez 13y ago

While I can appreciate your situation, those last two paragraphs read with the same kind of anecdotal logic that lead people to the conclusion that vaccinations do more harm than good.

aluhut 13y ago
It wasn't ment that way. The vaccination conspiracy theorists are the opposite evil here. They are even worse. I didn't want to say that I would not give my kid antibiotics. This is bullshit. But I will change the doctor if his only solution is antibiotics. I had that situation already with my girlfriend. She is ill pretty often. She works in a kindergarden and parents tent to get rid of their sick kids by sending them there. She had to change her doctor because it just did not work out and sometimes the solution is simply to stay home for a few days and drink some warm tea. There is no easy solution here. You can't say that you refuse all kinds of medication but you have to find out which doctor is really trying to help you out here and this can be only done through experience. I for myself am just lucky. I can't say how but it works. If I ever get really sick and the 3 days on tea won't help, I will go to the doctor I trust and get some medication to cure it.
- vidarh 13y ago
  I'm Norwegian. Norwegian doctors at least used to be extremely careful about anti-biotics. I now live in the UK, and the doctors here often prescribe anti-biotics after telling us we most likely have a viral infection. I think the main thing is to challenge them to explain why. If they can't give a coherent explanation, ask them to explain to you what they think the risks are of waiting. Most of the time when doctors here want to prescribe anti-biotics their answer is pretty much "just in case I missed something and it's actually a bacterial infection", and usually they'll then concede that if I'm ok with it, I can wait it out a couple of days and only take antibiotics if things doesn't start to improve with minimal risk. A couple of times the explanation has been that they've often seen specific symptoms exacerbated by a simultaneous bacterial infection, but again their response has been the same: if I don't keep getting worse, I'm fine to wait. The only time I've ended up taking the antibiotics on offer was when I came in once spitting blood and with massive white lumps at the back of my throat (from whence the blood came, as they were ripped open when I coughed). Yay. Even then the doctor assumed, probably correctly, that it most likely was a viral infection that was making the rounds - she had a steady stream of the same symptoms that week -, but pointed out that given that my throat was so swollen and painful that I could hardly even drink, and the coughing of blood, if she was wrong and it got worse without antibiotics, next stop might be the hospital. But of course few people care - they don't question the reasons for prescriptions at all. Part of the high level of prescription of antibiotics in the UK is because of the health system here - they're paid per roughly per patient (adjusted for patient age, morbidity levels in the area they operate in, and a number of other factors meant to adjust for the cost of providing service, but the point is they are not paid per patient visit). If they get me out the door quickly and I don't come back, that's a win for them, so they are incentivised to get me well, but there's no downside to them short term from doing so by prescribing me something there might only be a 5% change that will make a difference to me at all - that's five percent fewer repeat visits at no real risk to them. Few patients will complain, as the prescription cost is low, and when they get better in a few days, many of them will assume it was the antibiotics and so assume the doctor was right. It's hard to set rules that prevent these kind of incentives, other than monitoring of whether or not they are in line with guidelines and/or whether or not they prescribe grossly more than the baseline.

swombat 13y ago

I don't know how this is possible after my very hard childhood but I just don't get sick anymore. Sounds like whatever your doctors did worked miracles. No serious illness for 20 years? If this experiment could be repeated at scale, and proved to apply to others, everyone should receive the same antibiotics treatment you had!

aluhut 13y ago
I don't know if 15/16 years of badly cured diseases with a pneumonia finale grande are really a solution here. I don't even want to start with the side effects. But yeah, funny ;)
VLM 13y ago
Perhaps his parents smoked. Mine did. All kinds of respiratory problems as a kid, mysterious miracle cure at 19 when I moved out.
- aluhut 13y ago
  No my parents never smoke. I did though.

a8da6b0c91d 13y ago

If you read Dr. Art Ayers he says antibiotic usage is almost a catastrophe for a person's health. The gut biome never fully recovers and the consequence is all kinds of strange inflammatory diseases, which of course are now epidemic in the West. http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/ http://coolinginflammation.blogspot.com/

dspillett 13y ago
Overuse of antibiotics has also been linked to some "slow development" abnormalities in children, it is suspected (or so a report mentioned in New Scientist says...) this is due to disruption the gut biome which in some cases can for a time disrupt how much energy the young'n' can extra from food which as some developmental stages could be quite a inconvenience. IIRC that report suggested that most of the affect kids seemed to catch up eventually, but it is probably something that warrants more detailed investigation.

protomyth 13y ago

IHS (Indian Health Service) would give you anti-biotics when it suspected strep throat (or any other sickness) they would prescribe anti-biotics even though their tests would take 3 days[1]. If it wasn't strep, they wouldn't tell you to stop taking the anti-biotics. Glad to see we followed the practices of East Block countries. 1) send to government contracted lab, get sample test, send back result - gotta love government contracts. I'm told someone got an even bigger contract to speed up the testing or allow onsite tests.

sagarm 13y ago
If you start an antibiotic course, it's important to finish it. Otherwise you will have exerted some selective pressure on bacteria in your body without making sure you killed them all, leaving only the resistant bacteria to flourish.
- protomyth 13y ago
  Didn't know that - wouldn't have mattered much, they never really followed up. I do wonder how many people took anti-biotics for no good reason.