4 ms·

European chest-beating in the wake of the NSA revelations is fairly hypocritical. The difference between the US and the EU is that in the US, the snooping was i

European chest-beating in the wake of the NSA revelations is fairly hypocritical. The difference between the US and the EU is that in the US, the snooping was icky, secret and very possibly illegal. In the EU, it's done out in the open, required by law: According to the directive, member states will have to store citizens' telecommunications data for six to 24 months stipulating a maximum time period. Under the directive the police and security agencies will be able to request access to details such as IP address and time of use of every email, phone call and text message sent or received. A permission to access the information will be granted only by a court. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Retention_Directive Concerns about spying on foreigners vs. nationals? Does not apply in the EU. All the chatter about mission creep in the PRISM data, how it's used by the DEA, IRS etc., rather than use national security? That's routine, by the book usage of the very same data in the EU.

jacquesm 13y ago
DRD is in many ways incompatible with DPD, this is well known and a source of much industry confusion. Note that the DRD applies to specific requests and that the data is kept by the corporations (typically telcos and ISPs) rather than turned over wholesale to government institutions, in other words, you need a warrant to get specific data. As such, there is a huge difference here. Where the hypocrisy comes in is where the EU nation states were actively aiding the NSA in exchange for access and tricks regarding nationality to side-step local limitations ('I spy on your citizens if you spy on mine').
- tripzilch 13y ago
  And I still don't like the DRD either. Another thing, hypocritical maybe, even if the EU is being "just as bad" in a certain sense, piggybacking on the US outrage on this topic may help matters in the EU as well. Even if it's just increased privacy-consciousness among the public. For real, like people have pointed out, we already knew about surveillance in the EU months (or longer) before Snowden leaked his info, it was public knowledge and nobody said anything because it wasn't really in the news. Now it is, and some of it may stick to what the EU is doing as well.
bjourne 13y ago
It's more about pragmatism than hypocracy. Everyone in Europe has a lot to win on painting the US as the bad guys and themselves as innocent. Major European tech firms are going to play this story very hard to gain fat government contracts rather than their American competitors. That's what might change things, when profits are being hurt politicians are very quick to act.
- criley2 13y ago
  Short sighted pragmatism. As Europeans turn against Americans (or more precisely, non-Anglos turn against the Anglosphere/Five Eyes), the West begins to fracture precisely as the East begins to rise again with force. It's going to be an interesting decade.
  - koide 13y ago
    The west fractured or not, the east is going to rise. Turning a blind eye to this concrete opportunity makes no difference to that end result, but does affect the quarter's earnings. Also, these quarrels will hardly damage international relations in any significant manner as to prevent the west unite in whatever manner they see fit to face the east.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - criley2 13y ago
      Will it? People are getting fired up, and the anti-American feelings in Europe are strong. The politicians might understand better but will the people? Or will, after years of being told how evil the Americans are, functionally see their choice as one despot or another? Which is sad, because all of this hoopla over spying... isn't a hoopla in the east. It's just the status quo.
      - koide 13y ago
        The rest of the world has known for a lot of years (more than thirty) what has just been confirmed an publicized in the US itself with the latest developments: The US government is not at all a BDFL, but behaves more like a bully. These revelations don't change things much, macropollitically. The only thing that could, maybe, be changing is the US people perception of their country but, again, many western democracies are not keen on listening to the people.
fauigerzigerk 13y ago
The data retention directive is undoubtedly problematic, but if it is implemented according to law, it means that telcos will hand over metadata on individual accounts at the request of a court. There are no secret courts, no gag orders and no dragnet mining of content as opposed to metadata. But of course that says nothing about what European police organizations are up to ... secretly. I'm thinking of things like the "Bundestrojaner".
- tlb 13y ago
  How un-secret are they? Is there a room I can go sit and watch search warrants being requested and issued? If not, why do you believe it's better than the US situation?
  - fauigerzigerk 13y ago
    The existence of such a room is not the only way in which the situation could possibly be better than in the US. In fact, such a room would itself be a gross violation of privacy. I think I explained in which ways I think it is better as far as the data retention directive is concerned. Whether or not it is really better in practice considering what police in any particular country might do, that I don't know. Maybe we need our own Snowden to tell us that.
    - tlb 13y ago
      I was asking a question, not saying you're wrong. I'm genuinely curious what forms of transparency exists in the EU, and how it curbs abuses.

jacquesm 13y ago

DRD is in many ways incompatible with DPD, this is well known and a source of much industry confusion. Note that the DRD applies to specific requests and that the data is kept by the corporations (typically telcos and ISPs) rather than turned over wholesale to government institutions, in other words, you need a warrant to get specific data. As such, there is a huge difference here. Where the hypocrisy comes in is where the EU nation states were actively aiding the NSA in exchange for access and tricks regarding nationality to side-step local limitations ('I spy on your citizens if you spy on mine').

tripzilch 13y ago
And I still don't like the DRD either. Another thing, hypocritical maybe, even if the EU is being "just as bad" in a certain sense, piggybacking on the US outrage on this topic may help matters in the EU as well. Even if it's just increased privacy-consciousness among the public. For real, like people have pointed out, we already knew about surveillance in the EU months (or longer) before Snowden leaked his info, it was public knowledge and nobody said anything because it wasn't really in the news. Now it is, and some of it may stick to what the EU is doing as well.

bjourne 13y ago

It's more about pragmatism than hypocracy. Everyone in Europe has a lot to win on painting the US as the bad guys and themselves as innocent. Major European tech firms are going to play this story very hard to gain fat government contracts rather than their American competitors. That's what might change things, when profits are being hurt politicians are very quick to act.

criley2 13y ago
Short sighted pragmatism. As Europeans turn against Americans (or more precisely, non-Anglos turn against the Anglosphere/Five Eyes), the West begins to fracture precisely as the East begins to rise again with force. It's going to be an interesting decade.
- koide 13y ago
  The west fractured or not, the east is going to rise. Turning a blind eye to this concrete opportunity makes no difference to that end result, but does affect the quarter's earnings. Also, these quarrels will hardly damage international relations in any significant manner as to prevent the west unite in whatever manner they see fit to face the east.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - criley2 13y ago
    Will it? People are getting fired up, and the anti-American feelings in Europe are strong. The politicians might understand better but will the people? Or will, after years of being told how evil the Americans are, functionally see their choice as one despot or another? Which is sad, because all of this hoopla over spying... isn't a hoopla in the east. It's just the status quo.
    - koide 13y ago
      The rest of the world has known for a lot of years (more than thirty) what has just been confirmed an publicized in the US itself with the latest developments: The US government is not at all a BDFL, but behaves more like a bully. These revelations don't change things much, macropollitically. The only thing that could, maybe, be changing is the US people perception of their country but, again, many western democracies are not keen on listening to the people.

fauigerzigerk 13y ago

The data retention directive is undoubtedly problematic, but if it is implemented according to law, it means that telcos will hand over metadata on individual accounts at the request of a court. There are no secret courts, no gag orders and no dragnet mining of content as opposed to metadata. But of course that says nothing about what European police organizations are up to ... secretly. I'm thinking of things like the "Bundestrojaner".

tlb 13y ago
How un-secret are they? Is there a room I can go sit and watch search warrants being requested and issued? If not, why do you believe it's better than the US situation?
- fauigerzigerk 13y ago
  The existence of such a room is not the only way in which the situation could possibly be better than in the US. In fact, such a room would itself be a gross violation of privacy. I think I explained in which ways I think it is better as far as the data retention directive is concerned. Whether or not it is really better in practice considering what police in any particular country might do, that I don't know. Maybe we need our own Snowden to tell us that.
  - tlb 13y ago
    I was asking a question, not saying you're wrong. I'm genuinely curious what forms of transparency exists in the EU, and how it curbs abuses.