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Anecdote: No musician has come to my house and put a gun to my head. Now if I downloaded a song that they spent their time, money and (used their) talent to cre

Anecdote: No musician has come to my house and put a gun to my head. Now if I downloaded a song that they spent their time, money and (used their) talent to create it, why shouldn't they get paid for it? No one forced me to download their song.

netcan 13y ago
No one forced them to make it either. The reality of recording and distributing music in 2013 did make it available to anyone for free. They recorded it anyway.
- bsullivan01 13y ago
  No one forced them to make the software program either. The reality of making and distributing software in 2013 did make it available to anyone for free. They made it anyway.
  - splawn 13y ago
    Yes, and so what? Thats been a "problem" with software decades before the same applied to music. Im sure its debatable, but I don't think its had much negative impact.
  - netcan 13y ago
    true.
ds9 13y ago
It's hard to tell whether this was intended seriously, but if so you totally missed the point of the parent post. No, musicians don't enforce the rights that some of them claim. Those who do believe in copyright rely on a third party. Uncle Sam, let's say, has a preponderance of coercive force and demands payments according to the terms set by copyright holders. (Note: the copyright holders, for many generations now, have been mostly not the creators, but a middle-man industry that has hijacked copyright law to exploit other people's creations.) The GP post is pointing out that this situation is inconsistent with libertarian/free-market principles. For intellectual property to be consistent with such principles, a musician would have to a contract with each customer, like "I'll sell you this copy if you agree not to give a copy to anyone else". Even then, a deal-breaker might transfer a copy to an innocent third party and that person might not have any obligation to refrain from sharing. There's no reason that creators "shouldn't get paid for" their efforts, but to show that they are entitled to enforce such a claim, with the force of government, you have to show that the laws providing for such an arrangement are legitimate. And to show that, you have to argue either (a) that intellectual property is a natural right or (b) that everyone is obligated to obey whatever laws the government chooses to make, regardless of their content.
- bsullivan01 13y ago
  >> There's no reason that creators "shouldn't get paid for" their efforts, but to show that they are entitled to enforce such a claim, with the force of government, you have to show that the laws providing for such an arrangement are legitimate. And to show that, you have to argue either (a) that intellectual property is a natural right or (b) that everyone is obligated to obey whatever laws the government chooses to make, regardless of their content. The same way FBI goes after software pirates? http://www.fbi.gov/buffalo/press-releases/2013/former-sutherland-global-services-employee-sentenced-in-mail-fraud-conspiracy http://www.fbi.gov/buffalo/press-releases/2013/former-suther... Or is this different and deserving since it hits closer to home?
coldpie 13y ago
It's possible to argue the moralities and causes and effects of piracy all day, but the simple fact is that you can't stop piracy. You (the record labels, etc) can tilt against that windmill until your coffers run dry, and the only result will be your bankruptcy. The better option would be to recognize that fact and rearrange your business model to be profitable in a world where reproduction and distribution costs are zero. If you can't do that, perhaps you belong with the buggy whip manufacturers.

netcan 13y ago

No one forced them to make it either. The reality of recording and distributing music in 2013 did make it available to anyone for free. They recorded it anyway.

bsullivan01 13y ago
No one forced them to make the software program either. The reality of making and distributing software in 2013 did make it available to anyone for free. They made it anyway.
- splawn 13y ago
  Yes, and so what? Thats been a "problem" with software decades before the same applied to music. Im sure its debatable, but I don't think its had much negative impact.
- netcan 13y ago
  true.

ds9 13y ago

It's hard to tell whether this was intended seriously, but if so you totally missed the point of the parent post. No, musicians don't enforce the rights that some of them claim. Those who do believe in copyright rely on a third party. Uncle Sam, let's say, has a preponderance of coercive force and demands payments according to the terms set by copyright holders. (Note: the copyright holders, for many generations now, have been mostly not the creators, but a middle-man industry that has hijacked copyright law to exploit other people's creations.) The GP post is pointing out that this situation is inconsistent with libertarian/free-market principles. For intellectual property to be consistent with such principles, a musician would have to a contract with each customer, like "I'll sell you this copy if you agree not to give a copy to anyone else". Even then, a deal-breaker might transfer a copy to an innocent third party and that person might not have any obligation to refrain from sharing. There's no reason that creators "shouldn't get paid for" their efforts, but to show that they are entitled to enforce such a claim, with the force of government, you have to show that the laws providing for such an arrangement are legitimate. And to show that, you have to argue either (a) that intellectual property is a natural right or (b) that everyone is obligated to obey whatever laws the government chooses to make, regardless of their content.

bsullivan01 13y ago
>> There's no reason that creators "shouldn't get paid for" their efforts, but to show that they are entitled to enforce such a claim, with the force of government, you have to show that the laws providing for such an arrangement are legitimate. And to show that, you have to argue either (a) that intellectual property is a natural right or (b) that everyone is obligated to obey whatever laws the government chooses to make, regardless of their content. The same way FBI goes after software pirates? http://www.fbi.gov/buffalo/press-releases/2013/former-sutherland-global-services-employee-sentenced-in-mail-fraud-conspiracy http://www.fbi.gov/buffalo/press-releases/2013/former-suther... Or is this different and deserving since it hits closer to home?

coldpie 13y ago

It's possible to argue the moralities and causes and effects of piracy all day, but the simple fact is that you can't stop piracy. You (the record labels, etc) can tilt against that windmill until your coffers run dry, and the only result will be your bankruptcy. The better option would be to recognize that fact and rearrange your business model to be profitable in a world where reproduction and distribution costs are zero. If you can't do that, perhaps you belong with the buggy whip manufacturers.