4 ms·

I suspected there was going to be a mass exodus. NSA basically killed cloud-computing. I don't think it will come back soon. And while on the subject, consider

by scrrr 13y ago

I suspected there was going to be a mass exodus. NSA basically killed cloud-computing. I don't think it will come back soon. And while on the subject, consider selling your Microsoft stock. How many enterprise customers will choose Microsoft products again after 2013?

jacquesm 13y ago
> NSA basically killed cloud-computing. I don't think the current disgust will last too long. A lot of people will move, at some point they'll realize the grass isn't all that much greener on the other side. There is a definite activation energy required for such a move and I'm sure that the NSA debacle provided just that for a fairly large number of parties but in the very long term the difference will be small. (In the short term it will be quite significant, at least as long as this issue is on the front-burner in the media). The response to things like this is usually an impulse with a strong attenuation over time. It'll never quite become 0 but it will get close to 0 in a fairly short time. The reason why right now we are seeing all this movement is because Glenn Greenwald specifically is doing an extremely good job of keeping the focus on this subject. Mainstream media would normally have completely passed an issue like this by as too technical and not enough human interest to spend a lot of time on (both of those are negatives in a news cycle that thrives on eyeballs and associated advertising). The longer this story is kept in the public eye the bigger the fall-out will be. For now, I'm very impressed with how they are managing this, considering the adversary.
- scrrr 13y ago
  Greenwald somewhere mentioned that there's material for months to come if I am not mistaken. So besides that he's doing a good job (agreed), I think Snowden simply provided a huge amount of information.
  - jbigelow76 13y ago
    If there really is months more worth of information I wonder if the public, US or otherwise (as we find more countries with intelligence agencies working as accessories), will experience outrage fatigue. I guess it will depend on how bad each revelation is but I could easily imagine a lot people picking the one revelation that really bothered them and then framing all others relative to that: "they're doing Y too? What's the point when they are already doing X?" My armchair quarterback opinion, reveal the rest now and hope for a critical mass of outrage.
    - jacquesm 13y ago
      > will experience outrage fatigue. That is already happening, even here on HN where people consider this off-topic because it is also mainstream news.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      >I wonder if the public, US or otherwise (as we find more countries with intelligence agencies working as accessories), will experience outrage fatigue. That's a valid concern about something which I consider the most disgusting stance a citizen could have. As if news and outrage are supposed to be novel and entertaining. It shows that those who feel that way are not active citizens of a democracy, but passive couch potatoes, overstimulated with media BS and their own private affairs, and unable to think or act to better their country and communities. Consider the enormity of using the same excuse for black rights ("Jim Crow laws? Seggregation? Who cares about this, didn't we already have a civil war and a KKK discussion for so many years?") or anything that took time to fix.
    - uptown 13y ago
      "I wonder if the public, US or otherwise (as we find more countries with intelligence agencies working as accessories), will experience outrage fatigue." Unfortunately, I fear the mainstream mindset towards this issue will hinge on how the major political candidates in the 2016 election choose to frame the issue. If there's widespread consensus from the leading Presidential candidates in both parties that this is not an issue - then the mainstream populous is likely to get in-line with that mindset in-support of "their" candidate. I hope the public perception of these issues doesn't get dumbed down to political-party allegiance, but I fear it may be the case.
      - flatfilefan 13y ago
        This is a very insightful way to look at things and it highlights the role of the leadership. In current world not much of the stuff matters, actually, as it is very high on the Maslow's pyramid. So it has to be thought leaders who define the course of action for the "careless masses" (TM).
- bowlofpetunias 13y ago
  No, current disgust won't last too long, but it is currently being transformed into future policy at almost ever shop that uses cloud services, from governments, major corporations to small companies that outsource their IT needs. And those policies, which can be summarized as "we won't store our shit with US companies" will last for decades. It may take many years before they are fully implement because nobody wants to throw money at migrating legacy with no immediate financial upside. Besides, in many cases there aren't yet sufficient competing non-US services that meet all requirements. It will be a slow exodus, but it will also be a massive and irreversible exodus.
techsupporter 13y ago
I'm curious to know why you advocated just selling Microsoft stock when Google and Amazon and IBM also have cloud computing/services businesses. Will they not be affected?
- ryanSrich 13y ago
  Microsoft's not included in the silivon valley good ol' boys club.
- nl 13y ago
  I suspect the author was implying that the NSA backdoors in Windows will affect use of Windows by business. Personally I doubt it - those backdoors have been known for years[1], and nothing happened. [1] This report is dated 1999: http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html
ryanSrich 13y ago
For who? None of our customers have even voiced concern over the NSA let alone foot the bill to migrate their data to the eu. I think HN in particular has tunnel vision over this situation. Unless shown otherwise I'd warrant a guess that outside the tech community the overwhelming majority or people and businesses don't care about what the NSA does.
driverdan 13y ago
One hacker moving is data to his own country is a mass exodus? This site's users represent a small fraction of the general population. Most people don't know or care about what's going on. There isn't and won't be a mass exodus. Will it have a large enough impact to make companies take action? Quite possibly. But there is no way it's going to kill cloud computing.
chadk 13y ago
I thought there might be a mass exodus, but that hasn't happened yet. What I think might happen is people will keep using the vanilla cloud for day to day, but then switch platforms for "sensitive" topics. IE. you send me an email about the special project, then we go on Silent Circle to continue the discussion. Kinda like talking on the phone and then meeting in person. This of course does not solve the metadata problem. But I don't think the populace is really considering this angle. Protecting content is much more visceral.

by scrrr 13y ago

jacquesm 13y ago

> NSA basically killed cloud-computing. I don't think the current disgust will last too long. A lot of people will move, at some point they'll realize the grass isn't all that much greener on the other side. There is a definite activation energy required for such a move and I'm sure that the NSA debacle provided just that for a fairly large number of parties but in the very long term the difference will be small. (In the short term it will be quite significant, at least as long as this issue is on the front-burner in the media). The response to things like this is usually an impulse with a strong attenuation over time. It'll never quite become 0 but it will get close to 0 in a fairly short time. The reason why right now we are seeing all this movement is because Glenn Greenwald specifically is doing an extremely good job of keeping the focus on this subject. Mainstream media would normally have completely passed an issue like this by as too technical and not enough human interest to spend a lot of time on (both of those are negatives in a news cycle that thrives on eyeballs and associated advertising). The longer this story is kept in the public eye the bigger the fall-out will be. For now, I'm very impressed with how they are managing this, considering the adversary.

scrrr 13y ago
Greenwald somewhere mentioned that there's material for months to come if I am not mistaken. So besides that he's doing a good job (agreed), I think Snowden simply provided a huge amount of information.
- jbigelow76 13y ago
  If there really is months more worth of information I wonder if the public, US or otherwise (as we find more countries with intelligence agencies working as accessories), will experience outrage fatigue. I guess it will depend on how bad each revelation is but I could easily imagine a lot people picking the one revelation that really bothered them and then framing all others relative to that: "they're doing Y too? What's the point when they are already doing X?" My armchair quarterback opinion, reveal the rest now and hope for a critical mass of outrage.
  - jacquesm 13y ago
    > will experience outrage fatigue. That is already happening, even here on HN where people consider this off-topic because it is also mainstream news.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >I wonder if the public, US or otherwise (as we find more countries with intelligence agencies working as accessories), will experience outrage fatigue. That's a valid concern about something which I consider the most disgusting stance a citizen could have. As if news and outrage are supposed to be novel and entertaining. It shows that those who feel that way are not active citizens of a democracy, but passive couch potatoes, overstimulated with media BS and their own private affairs, and unable to think or act to better their country and communities. Consider the enormity of using the same excuse for black rights ("Jim Crow laws? Seggregation? Who cares about this, didn't we already have a civil war and a KKK discussion for so many years?") or anything that took time to fix.
  - uptown 13y ago
    "I wonder if the public, US or otherwise (as we find more countries with intelligence agencies working as accessories), will experience outrage fatigue." Unfortunately, I fear the mainstream mindset towards this issue will hinge on how the major political candidates in the 2016 election choose to frame the issue. If there's widespread consensus from the leading Presidential candidates in both parties that this is not an issue - then the mainstream populous is likely to get in-line with that mindset in-support of "their" candidate. I hope the public perception of these issues doesn't get dumbed down to political-party allegiance, but I fear it may be the case.
    - flatfilefan 13y ago
      This is a very insightful way to look at things and it highlights the role of the leadership. In current world not much of the stuff matters, actually, as it is very high on the Maslow's pyramid. So it has to be thought leaders who define the course of action for the "careless masses" (TM).
bowlofpetunias 13y ago
No, current disgust won't last too long, but it is currently being transformed into future policy at almost ever shop that uses cloud services, from governments, major corporations to small companies that outsource their IT needs. And those policies, which can be summarized as "we won't store our shit with US companies" will last for decades. It may take many years before they are fully implement because nobody wants to throw money at migrating legacy with no immediate financial upside. Besides, in many cases there aren't yet sufficient competing non-US services that meet all requirements. It will be a slow exodus, but it will also be a massive and irreversible exodus.

techsupporter 13y ago

I'm curious to know why you advocated just selling Microsoft stock when Google and Amazon and IBM also have cloud computing/services businesses. Will they not be affected?

ryanSrich 13y ago
Microsoft's not included in the silivon valley good ol' boys club.
nl 13y ago
I suspect the author was implying that the NSA backdoors in Windows will affect use of Windows by business. Personally I doubt it - those backdoors have been known for years[1], and nothing happened. [1] This report is dated 1999: http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/5/5263/1.html

ryanSrich 13y ago

For who? None of our customers have even voiced concern over the NSA let alone foot the bill to migrate their data to the eu. I think HN in particular has tunnel vision over this situation. Unless shown otherwise I'd warrant a guess that outside the tech community the overwhelming majority or people and businesses don't care about what the NSA does.

driverdan 13y ago

One hacker moving is data to his own country is a mass exodus? This site's users represent a small fraction of the general population. Most people don't know or care about what's going on. There isn't and won't be a mass exodus. Will it have a large enough impact to make companies take action? Quite possibly. But there is no way it's going to kill cloud computing.

chadk 13y ago

I thought there might be a mass exodus, but that hasn't happened yet. What I think might happen is people will keep using the vanilla cloud for day to day, but then switch platforms for "sensitive" topics. IE. you send me an email about the special project, then we go on Silent Circle to continue the discussion. Kinda like talking on the phone and then meeting in person. This of course does not solve the metadata problem. But I don't think the populace is really considering this angle. Protecting content is much more visceral.