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> "he did realize the apparent contradiction" Yes. That is the irony of ironism. The final point of Ironism is the self-awareness of authors to their own final

> "he did realize the apparent contradiction" Yes. That is the irony of ironism. The final point of Ironism is the self-awareness of authors to their own final vocabularies. I think it is more than fair for Rorty to state his preference for social orders and explain his rationale for his beliefs. And he has as much right as anyone to expect his ideas to be taken seriously. But to suggest that the man believed he was relaying the Truth is to miss literally everything he stood for. That is, I can say that man having liberty to pursue diverse lifestyles is a good state of social affairs without having to believe I am stating a redemptive truth.

pdonis 13y ago
to suggest that the man believed he was relaying the Truth is to miss literally everything he stood for. I don't think he believed that; I think he genuinely thought he was "deconstructing" the idea of Truth and putting forward a way of dealing with the world without needing such a notion. I just think he was in error in believing that. See below. I can say that man having liberty to pursue diverse lifestyles is a good state of social affairs without having to believe I am stating a redemptive truth. Either you mean your statement to be taken seriously or not. If you don't, then yes, you're not stating a redemptive truth, because you're not stating anything. So I can just ignore what you say. (I assume that wasn't your intention, but of course I may be wrong, just as I may be wrong in thinking that Rorty meant his utopia claim to be taken seriously.) If you do mean your statement to be taken seriously, then, whether you realize it or not, you are committing yourself to truth claims. Perhaps you would not describe them as "redemptive" truth claims, but that's quibbling over words. If you're committing yourself to truth claims, then you haven't deconstructed the idea of Truth, because we all live in the same world, so all of our truth claims about it have to be consistent. Similarly, if Rorty means his claims about utopia to be taken seriously, then he's committing himself to truth claims (not least about the possibilities allowed by human nature). To say that, well, it isn't "redemptive" truth because he's allowing different people to have different worldviews, is, once again, quibbling over words. Everybody has to coexist in the same world, and his claim about utopia amounts to claiming that there is a One True Way to organize society that will somehow magically let everyone coexist without conflict. I think, as I said, that that's a dangerous illusion, but whether it is or not, it isn't something one can believe without having a notion of Truth.

pdonis 13y ago

to suggest that the man believed he was relaying the Truth is to miss literally everything he stood for. I don't think he believed that; I think he genuinely thought he was "deconstructing" the idea of Truth and putting forward a way of dealing with the world without needing such a notion. I just think he was in error in believing that. See below. I can say that man having liberty to pursue diverse lifestyles is a good state of social affairs without having to believe I am stating a redemptive truth. Either you mean your statement to be taken seriously or not. If you don't, then yes, you're not stating a redemptive truth, because you're not stating anything. So I can just ignore what you say. (I assume that wasn't your intention, but of course I may be wrong, just as I may be wrong in thinking that Rorty meant his utopia claim to be taken seriously.) If you do mean your statement to be taken seriously, then, whether you realize it or not, you are committing yourself to truth claims. Perhaps you would not describe them as "redemptive" truth claims, but that's quibbling over words. If you're committing yourself to truth claims, then you haven't deconstructed the idea of Truth, because we all live in the same world, so all of our truth claims about it have to be consistent. Similarly, if Rorty means his claims about utopia to be taken seriously, then he's committing himself to truth claims (not least about the possibilities allowed by human nature). To say that, well, it isn't "redemptive" truth because he's allowing different people to have different worldviews, is, once again, quibbling over words. Everybody has to coexist in the same world, and his claim about utopia amounts to claiming that there is a One True Way to organize society that will somehow magically let everyone coexist without conflict. I think, as I said, that that's a dangerous illusion, but whether it is or not, it isn't something one can believe without having a notion of Truth.