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> I'd dropped out of college because I'd failed calculus - twice - and was basically told I'd never graduate without passing calculus One of the biggest pieces

by derleth 13y ago

> I'd dropped out of college because I'd failed calculus - twice - and was basically told I'd never graduate without passing calculus One of the biggest pieces of BS is forcing calculus on people who have neither the need nor the desire to know calculus. CS majors, for example, would be better served by a Discrete Math course instead of calculus: That's formal logic (first-order predicate logic, in specific) along with combinatorics and big-O notations (big-O, big-Theta, big-Omega, etc.), and some emphasis on writing proofs. If they later decide to learn calculus, they can either take freshman formula-grind calculus or Real Analysis, which is where you learn where stuff like the chain rule actually comes from by deriving calculus from first principles. Real Analysis is a lot more interesting. Gradually getting back to my point, the focus on calculus is outdated and at odds with any STEM program that isn't exclusively or even primarily about creating civil engineers and physicists.

mgkimsal 13y ago
I've still got a chip on my shoulder about it (or, maybe... some other humiliation thing going on). From what I could tell, this was a basic general ed requirement - people getting English degrees were taking it, and passing, but somehow I could not get it. It was quite a depressing period in my life, and for the life of me I still don't understand how so many people can grasp something apparently so basic, yet I'm stymied by it. Furthermore, why is "if a=b and b=c then a=c" stye logic apparently so difficult to others; people were dropping out of logic 101 saying it was "too hard", but apparently calculus is 'easy'?
- derleth 13y ago
  Do a Google search on 'algebra vs analysis' (without quotes) and you'll see that analysis (the broad field of mathematics where calculus lives) and algebra (the broad field of mathematics where the kind of logic you likely studied lives) are two different mindsets more than anything else. Different kinds of mathematicians are attracted to each of those fields. This is, of course, another reason why calculus shouldn't be the barrier course (you can't graduate without it!) that it is. Some people just don't do that, and they shouldn't be penalized for it if their field doesn't require calculus (or any analysis) in the first place. This thread is interesting: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=619519 http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=619519
  - mgkimsal 13y ago
    thanks!
philwelch 13y ago
Calculus is used in CS--not a whole bunch but a little bit. The problem is that it's usually taught abominably. Knuth, and others, literally wrote the book on what math you need to do CS and it uses some calculus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_Mathematics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_Mathematics I don't doubt that Real Analysis is more interesting. If only I knew from the start that upper level math was actually interesting rather than tedious. Graph theory is also loads of fun.

by derleth 13y ago

mgkimsal 13y ago

I've still got a chip on my shoulder about it (or, maybe... some other humiliation thing going on). From what I could tell, this was a basic general ed requirement - people getting English degrees were taking it, and passing, but somehow I could not get it. It was quite a depressing period in my life, and for the life of me I still don't understand how so many people can grasp something apparently so basic, yet I'm stymied by it. Furthermore, why is "if a=b and b=c then a=c" stye logic apparently so difficult to others; people were dropping out of logic 101 saying it was "too hard", but apparently calculus is 'easy'?

derleth 13y ago
Do a Google search on 'algebra vs analysis' (without quotes) and you'll see that analysis (the broad field of mathematics where calculus lives) and algebra (the broad field of mathematics where the kind of logic you likely studied lives) are two different mindsets more than anything else. Different kinds of mathematicians are attracted to each of those fields. This is, of course, another reason why calculus shouldn't be the barrier course (you can't graduate without it!) that it is. Some people just don't do that, and they shouldn't be penalized for it if their field doesn't require calculus (or any analysis) in the first place. This thread is interesting: http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=619519 http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=619519
- mgkimsal 13y ago
  thanks!

philwelch 13y ago

Calculus is used in CS--not a whole bunch but a little bit. The problem is that it's usually taught abominably. Knuth, and others, literally wrote the book on what math you need to do CS and it uses some calculus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_Mathematics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_Mathematics I don't doubt that Real Analysis is more interesting. If only I knew from the start that upper level math was actually interesting rather than tedious. Graph theory is also loads of fun.