4 ms·

"He claims to have "deconstructed" redemptive truth and put something better in its place;" Again, I would argue you haven't understood him. One of Rorty's mai

"He claims to have "deconstructed" redemptive truth and put something better in its place;" Again, I would argue you haven't understood him. One of Rorty's main claims was Ironism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironism I suppose you might not find it funny or clever that after 20+ pages of arguing there is no redemptive truth that he would share his opinions on a good life but don't think for a second he didn't realize it himself. It was the subtle wink at Nietzsche's "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Why doesn't Rorty get to share his own literary opinion? However, as to the "utopia" that he describes in that article - I very much share your doubts and I feel he is unduly optimistic. However, the general idea of having a multiplicity of options and the liberty to pursue them is something I can agree with.

pdonis 13y ago
don't think for a second he didn't realize it himself Realize what? That he was being funny or clever? Certainly, he can be both. That doesn't change the fact that he made a serious claim, and one which, whether or not he was being funny or clever, I believe he meant to be taken seriously (and you appear to believe that too--but see below). Or are you saying that he realized that he was, in fact, advocating a new kind of redemptive truth, after he'd just said there was no such thing? In that case, I disagree: I don't think he realized that, because if he had, that part of the article would have been different; at least, it would have been if he is intellectually honest (and I have no reason to believe he isn't--but see below). Either he would have taken out the claim that there's no such thing as redemptive truth, or he would have taken out the claim about utopia, or he would have made some argument attempting to reconcile the apparent contradiction between the two. You could, I suppose, be saying that he did realize the apparent contradiction, but it was OK because he didn't mean the claim about utopia to be taken seriously. If that's what he meant, then he would not, IMO, be intellectually honest, because he clearly believes that "having a multiplicity of options and the liberty to pursue them" is a desirable state for society.
- reggieband 13y ago
  > "he did realize the apparent contradiction" Yes. That is the irony of ironism. The final point of Ironism is the self-awareness of authors to their own final vocabularies. I think it is more than fair for Rorty to state his preference for social orders and explain his rationale for his beliefs. And he has as much right as anyone to expect his ideas to be taken seriously. But to suggest that the man believed he was relaying the Truth is to miss literally everything he stood for. That is, I can say that man having liberty to pursue diverse lifestyles is a good state of social affairs without having to believe I am stating a redemptive truth.
  - pdonis 13y ago
    to suggest that the man believed he was relaying the Truth is to miss literally everything he stood for. I don't think he believed that; I think he genuinely thought he was "deconstructing" the idea of Truth and putting forward a way of dealing with the world without needing such a notion. I just think he was in error in believing that. See below. I can say that man having liberty to pursue diverse lifestyles is a good state of social affairs without having to believe I am stating a redemptive truth. Either you mean your statement to be taken seriously or not. If you don't, then yes, you're not stating a redemptive truth, because you're not stating anything. So I can just ignore what you say. (I assume that wasn't your intention, but of course I may be wrong, just as I may be wrong in thinking that Rorty meant his utopia claim to be taken seriously.) If you do mean your statement to be taken seriously, then, whether you realize it or not, you are committing yourself to truth claims. Perhaps you would not describe them as "redemptive" truth claims, but that's quibbling over words. If you're committing yourself to truth claims, then you haven't deconstructed the idea of Truth, because we all live in the same world, so all of our truth claims about it have to be consistent. Similarly, if Rorty means his claims about utopia to be taken seriously, then he's committing himself to truth claims (not least about the possibilities allowed by human nature). To say that, well, it isn't "redemptive" truth because he's allowing different people to have different worldviews, is, once again, quibbling over words. Everybody has to coexist in the same world, and his claim about utopia amounts to claiming that there is a One True Way to organize society that will somehow magically let everyone coexist without conflict. I think, as I said, that that's a dangerous illusion, but whether it is or not, it isn't something one can believe without having a notion of Truth.

pdonis 13y ago

don't think for a second he didn't realize it himself Realize what? That he was being funny or clever? Certainly, he can be both. That doesn't change the fact that he made a serious claim, and one which, whether or not he was being funny or clever, I believe he meant to be taken seriously (and you appear to believe that too--but see below). Or are you saying that he realized that he was, in fact, advocating a new kind of redemptive truth, after he'd just said there was no such thing? In that case, I disagree: I don't think he realized that, because if he had, that part of the article would have been different; at least, it would have been if he is intellectually honest (and I have no reason to believe he isn't--but see below). Either he would have taken out the claim that there's no such thing as redemptive truth, or he would have taken out the claim about utopia, or he would have made some argument attempting to reconcile the apparent contradiction between the two. You could, I suppose, be saying that he did realize the apparent contradiction, but it was OK because he didn't mean the claim about utopia to be taken seriously. If that's what he meant, then he would not, IMO, be intellectually honest, because he clearly believes that "having a multiplicity of options and the liberty to pursue them" is a desirable state for society.

reggieband 13y ago
> "he did realize the apparent contradiction" Yes. That is the irony of ironism. The final point of Ironism is the self-awareness of authors to their own final vocabularies. I think it is more than fair for Rorty to state his preference for social orders and explain his rationale for his beliefs. And he has as much right as anyone to expect his ideas to be taken seriously. But to suggest that the man believed he was relaying the Truth is to miss literally everything he stood for. That is, I can say that man having liberty to pursue diverse lifestyles is a good state of social affairs without having to believe I am stating a redemptive truth.
- pdonis 13y ago
  to suggest that the man believed he was relaying the Truth is to miss literally everything he stood for. I don't think he believed that; I think he genuinely thought he was "deconstructing" the idea of Truth and putting forward a way of dealing with the world without needing such a notion. I just think he was in error in believing that. See below. I can say that man having liberty to pursue diverse lifestyles is a good state of social affairs without having to believe I am stating a redemptive truth. Either you mean your statement to be taken seriously or not. If you don't, then yes, you're not stating a redemptive truth, because you're not stating anything. So I can just ignore what you say. (I assume that wasn't your intention, but of course I may be wrong, just as I may be wrong in thinking that Rorty meant his utopia claim to be taken seriously.) If you do mean your statement to be taken seriously, then, whether you realize it or not, you are committing yourself to truth claims. Perhaps you would not describe them as "redemptive" truth claims, but that's quibbling over words. If you're committing yourself to truth claims, then you haven't deconstructed the idea of Truth, because we all live in the same world, so all of our truth claims about it have to be consistent. Similarly, if Rorty means his claims about utopia to be taken seriously, then he's committing himself to truth claims (not least about the possibilities allowed by human nature). To say that, well, it isn't "redemptive" truth because he's allowing different people to have different worldviews, is, once again, quibbling over words. Everybody has to coexist in the same world, and his claim about utopia amounts to claiming that there is a One True Way to organize society that will somehow magically let everyone coexist without conflict. I think, as I said, that that's a dangerous illusion, but whether it is or not, it isn't something one can believe without having a notion of Truth.