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This seems like it might be based on the assumption that OP is in SF. What about a place like, say, Chicago? Is $100/hr still below market rate for iOS devs t

This seems like it might be based on the assumption that OP is in SF. What about a place like, say, Chicago? Is $100/hr still below market rate for iOS devs there? If so, well, I'll happily make you an iOS app for $120/hr. Wow. In fact, this is more than "Wow." Either patio11 lives in an alternate world, or I've completely missed the fact that devs have become that valuable outside of SF. I mean, we're talking about someone who hasn't even graduated uni yet. Nothing against undergrads at all -- they're some of the most productive devs -- it's just that the world tends to pay more for grads. Another question: how should one "find businesses which require apps"? Door to door? EDIT: The more I think about this, the more absurd this advice sounds. Patrick, would you give a more thorough overview of the steps necessary to accomplish what you're suggesting, from the point of view of someone with zero experience except with the technical and artistic aspects of delivering a product? (I.e. no experience with the social aspects of landing a gig like this.) >$100/hr is roughly nine times what a college student working fulltime can expect to get at an average job, so what you're suggesting is no small feat, especially for an undergrad. What kind of social tricks are involved to pull this off?

ohashi 13y ago
I am based in DC, $100/hr isn't unreasonable at all if you can actually deliver results. You seem too focused on external factors like college student, average salary, etc. The real factors are how much value are you delivering for a company and how can you convince them you are the right person at the company to get the job.
- sillysaurus2 13y ago
  What I'm focused on is finding the company. Even if that sort of company exists, what matters is whether you can find them, and whether they'll give you the opportunity to deliver results. Delivering the actual results is, by far, the easiest leg of that triad. (At least for me, and I suspect many others are in the same situation.)
  - jonknee 13y ago
    When new people find it what you do and you say "I make mobile apps" you get a lot of "I have an idea for an app" responses. A lot of these are just wacky personal ideas, but many are people who want an app for their work (their own business or on behalf of their company).
patio11 13y ago
I get this a lot, and I understand it, because when I was 20 and earning the princely sum of $12.50 an hour it was outside of my experience that any business anywhere would pay $100 for anything which was not e.g. a lawyer. I am now older and, knock on wood, wiser. There are no "social tricks" involved -- well, not in the sense that you're thinking. You don't need a magic mind control beam to sell things to businesses. Here, I'm a geek like you're a geek. Can you (or J. Random Hypothetical Dev) outline how you would convince me, a fellow geek, that you could successfully program iOS applications? Showing me something you have made would suffice. Talking about the process of building iOS applications in a way which made it sound like you knew what you were talking about would also suffice. Now pivot from the technical question to the business question. Given that I (or K. Random Small Business Owner) has a business doing $FOO, how does that business make more money or spend less money as a result of having an iOS application built for it? I know exactly how you'd sell me an iPhone app. You'd ask if any of my SaaS accounts had ever canceled because of lack of an iPhone app. I'd tell you that that happened X0 times. You'd say "How much was their aggregate spend per month?" I'd say "A few thousand bucks." You'd say "So, to a first approximation, an iPhone app being available is going to be worth a few thousand bucks per month to your company within a few months." (n.b. This is just an example rather than a request to get proposals, guys.) How would you convince e.g. a financial adviser that he urgently wants to have an iOS app written? That might start with "How much do you make on your average customer account every year?" "A few thousand dollars." "How often do you get to talk to them?" "Mostly commonly, once or twice a year." "Do they ever cancel saying 'I don't understand what I'm paying you for." "That's my #1 cause of losing clients." "Wouldn't it be better if you were on their home screen every day?" "YES." How would you convince a restaurant that they want want a delivery app? Fill in the blank. How would you convince a plumbing company that they want something their plumbers can use to check-in and check-out of work sites? Fill in the blank. As to where you find businesses: I suppose you could sell things door to door, but most people don't. One way which works for a lot of people is to throw an event with the local e.g. Chamber of Commerce about some technology topic (maybe an overview of how mobile is changing the Internet, a subject on which you're vastly more educated than the average owner of a firm with $2 million a year in revenue in your local community) and having business cards and a willingness to continue the conversation when people try to talk to you after the event.
tptacek 13y ago
Chicago is not a wonderland where companies can procure high-quality iOS application development for a fraction of the going rate. If it was, we'd be the iOS app hub of the US.
- sillysaurus2 13y ago
  "The going rate" differs by location. Are you saying there are companies in Chicago willing to pay $100/hr to a lone-wolf iOS dev? It just seems like that kind of work would be farmed out to established players.
  - ChristinaM 13y ago
    I haven't had clients in Chicago but I would be very surprised if that weren't the case. I've done remote dev work (mostly iOS) for clients in Canada, Portland, and Minneapolis that paid better than $100/hr without working hard to increase rates. The one client who made an initial hourly offer started at $100/hr and I negotiated up from there with little resistance. Remote gigs are a real possibility, even at $100/hr if you're a decent communicator and can get things done. I've had several clients within a day's drive that I've never met because it just wasn't necessary. It does help to be in a convenient time zone. Most clients I'll see once or twice a year. I've talked to several local companies looking for freelance mobile web devs for interesting projects lately. They all want solo independent devs since (1) they're small and built their companies on reputation and (2) they've had better experiences working one-on-one than with big firms in the past. They all have clients or partners that are large companies. Don't expect to be able to bill 40 hours a week or have no expenses though. If I were looking to make $10k quick, I'd cold call local web/marketing agencies and propose having them offer iOS app development to their clients. A lot of them are thinking about it but don't know how to get started.
  - toomuchtodo 13y ago
    Our org in Chicago has an iOS dev making ~$100K/year salary (+ benefits, etc). They get offers constantly for $100K-$130K/year. Our lead dev gets exec/manager level mobile offers for $150K-$170K/year several times a month. So not lone wolf consulting from what I've seen, but the money is definitely there in the mobile space. Feel free to come get coffee if you want more info; I'm in the West Loop off Halsted.
willholloway 13y ago
I've been earning >$120 per hour, paid in advance, for contract django/flask/linux work. It's real and you can do it, and listening to patio11's podcast is where I got the idea to be paid in advance for time. Being paid in advance has solved almost all of my consultancies problems. Thanks patio11! EDIT: I work completely remotely with companies that aren't in SF or NYC.
- patio11 13y ago
  High five.
grumps 13y ago
I'm in DC I would expect around $100 for a mid to sr level freelance Dev in iOS or Web. I know for sure because at times have had to sub contract work out.

ohashi 13y ago

I am based in DC, $100/hr isn't unreasonable at all if you can actually deliver results. You seem too focused on external factors like college student, average salary, etc. The real factors are how much value are you delivering for a company and how can you convince them you are the right person at the company to get the job.

sillysaurus2 13y ago
What I'm focused on is finding the company. Even if that sort of company exists, what matters is whether you can find them, and whether they'll give you the opportunity to deliver results. Delivering the actual results is, by far, the easiest leg of that triad. (At least for me, and I suspect many others are in the same situation.)
- jonknee 13y ago
  When new people find it what you do and you say "I make mobile apps" you get a lot of "I have an idea for an app" responses. A lot of these are just wacky personal ideas, but many are people who want an app for their work (their own business or on behalf of their company).

patio11 13y ago

I get this a lot, and I understand it, because when I was 20 and earning the princely sum of $12.50 an hour it was outside of my experience that any business anywhere would pay $100 for anything which was not e.g. a lawyer. I am now older and, knock on wood, wiser. There are no "social tricks" involved -- well, not in the sense that you're thinking. You don't need a magic mind control beam to sell things to businesses. Here, I'm a geek like you're a geek. Can you (or J. Random Hypothetical Dev) outline how you would convince me, a fellow geek, that you could successfully program iOS applications? Showing me something you have made would suffice. Talking about the process of building iOS applications in a way which made it sound like you knew what you were talking about would also suffice. Now pivot from the technical question to the business question. Given that I (or K. Random Small Business Owner) has a business doing $FOO, how does that business make more money or spend less money as a result of having an iOS application built for it? I know exactly how you'd sell me an iPhone app. You'd ask if any of my SaaS accounts had ever canceled because of lack of an iPhone app. I'd tell you that that happened X0 times. You'd say "How much was their aggregate spend per month?" I'd say "A few thousand bucks." You'd say "So, to a first approximation, an iPhone app being available is going to be worth a few thousand bucks per month to your company within a few months." (n.b. This is just an example rather than a request to get proposals, guys.) How would you convince e.g. a financial adviser that he urgently wants to have an iOS app written? That might start with "How much do you make on your average customer account every year?" "A few thousand dollars." "How often do you get to talk to them?" "Mostly commonly, once or twice a year." "Do they ever cancel saying 'I don't understand what I'm paying you for." "That's my #1 cause of losing clients." "Wouldn't it be better if you were on their home screen every day?" "YES." How would you convince a restaurant that they want want a delivery app? Fill in the blank. How would you convince a plumbing company that they want something their plumbers can use to check-in and check-out of work sites? Fill in the blank. As to where you find businesses: I suppose you could sell things door to door, but most people don't. One way which works for a lot of people is to throw an event with the local e.g. Chamber of Commerce about some technology topic (maybe an overview of how mobile is changing the Internet, a subject on which you're vastly more educated than the average owner of a firm with $2 million a year in revenue in your local community) and having business cards and a willingness to continue the conversation when people try to talk to you after the event.

tptacek 13y ago

Chicago is not a wonderland where companies can procure high-quality iOS application development for a fraction of the going rate. If it was, we'd be the iOS app hub of the US.

sillysaurus2 13y ago
"The going rate" differs by location. Are you saying there are companies in Chicago willing to pay $100/hr to a lone-wolf iOS dev? It just seems like that kind of work would be farmed out to established players.
- ChristinaM 13y ago
  I haven't had clients in Chicago but I would be very surprised if that weren't the case. I've done remote dev work (mostly iOS) for clients in Canada, Portland, and Minneapolis that paid better than $100/hr without working hard to increase rates. The one client who made an initial hourly offer started at $100/hr and I negotiated up from there with little resistance. Remote gigs are a real possibility, even at $100/hr if you're a decent communicator and can get things done. I've had several clients within a day's drive that I've never met because it just wasn't necessary. It does help to be in a convenient time zone. Most clients I'll see once or twice a year. I've talked to several local companies looking for freelance mobile web devs for interesting projects lately. They all want solo independent devs since (1) they're small and built their companies on reputation and (2) they've had better experiences working one-on-one than with big firms in the past. They all have clients or partners that are large companies. Don't expect to be able to bill 40 hours a week or have no expenses though. If I were looking to make $10k quick, I'd cold call local web/marketing agencies and propose having them offer iOS app development to their clients. A lot of them are thinking about it but don't know how to get started.
- toomuchtodo 13y ago
  Our org in Chicago has an iOS dev making ~$100K/year salary (+ benefits, etc). They get offers constantly for $100K-$130K/year. Our lead dev gets exec/manager level mobile offers for $150K-$170K/year several times a month. So not lone wolf consulting from what I've seen, but the money is definitely there in the mobile space. Feel free to come get coffee if you want more info; I'm in the West Loop off Halsted.

willholloway 13y ago

I've been earning >$120 per hour, paid in advance, for contract django/flask/linux work. It's real and you can do it, and listening to patio11's podcast is where I got the idea to be paid in advance for time. Being paid in advance has solved almost all of my consultancies problems. Thanks patio11! EDIT: I work completely remotely with companies that aren't in SF or NYC.

patio11 13y ago
High five.

grumps 13y ago

I'm in DC I would expect around $100 for a mid to sr level freelance Dev in iOS or Web. I know for sure because at times have had to sub contract work out.