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> free markets are much more likely to be transparent than any other. That's wishful thinking contradicted by oodles of historical experience. Random example:

by abalone 13y ago

> free markets are much more likely to be transparent than any other. That's wishful thinking contradicted by oodles of historical experience. Random example: the unregulated market for medicine in the U.S. prior to the 20th century. The problem is consumers are not organized by default. Markets typically reflect individual preferences just fine, but individuals don't have the resources to fact-check propaganda, research and verify conditions of production, etc. This aspect of "consumer demand" requires collective organization to express effectively. A buying group is one example. But these things take investments of their own to start up, which is why you mostly find them among business customers. One of the reasons the corporate group health insurance market is so much better than the individual one. For the everyman, the government is a mechanism by which they can express collective demand. And it's why food and medicine safety, to pick one fundamental, has never been effectively secured for the general public absent government regulation.

dnautics 13y ago
you don't suppose the danger of the market for medicine in the US prior to the 20th century had anything to do with the fact that chemistry didn't exist as a discipline? Just what do you expect them to have regulated? The free market is quite good at providing consumers information, but often only if the consumers demand it. For a few decades now, consumers have gradually become more ethical in their consumption choices, and the markets are reflecting that. It's a long road and there are certainly many, many places where things can be improved. By contrast, consider that there is a lot of demand for certain values, like transparency, honesty, not sexually harassing your underlings, in government, and exactly how responsive do you suppose it's been? The faulty assumption is that government will somehow be 'the betters' of the general public. But every indication of the narcissistic type that gets elected, and the petty bureaucratic authoritarian that is unelected, suggests that those advancement in government may not necessarily select for those traits you want. Neither does capitalism (as it's structured today), but at least consumers have a direct option to opt-out of unethical things done with their money, which they do not for government. To pick another "fundamental", why do you suppose lightbulbs don't explode, and various and sundry electrical equipment doesn't electrocute you in the US? It's because regulation is being done by a private, nonprofit entity (the underwriter's laboratories) which goes through and certifies equipment for consumption. A good example of the free market working quite well to ensure safety, beyond even what the consumer might expect, with far less government interference.
- abalone 13y ago
  > For a few decades now, consumers have gradually become more ethical in their consumption choices Look at the history behind that. It came out of the 60s. Massive popular organization against the system. A gigantic non-market force that effected greater awareness of environmental destruction, the conditions of production and so forth. Consumers didn't just wake up one day with new preferences. They rioted against the market system. P.S. You forgot about OSHA federal electrical safety regulations.
  - dnautics 13y ago
    OSHA is only for the workplace and dates to 1970. UL goes back to the turn of the previous century. I don't know for sure, but I'd bet most electrical standards for OSHA defer to the UL standard.
    - abalone 13y ago
      OSHA just federalized it. Electrical safety has been regulated at the state and local level since practically the dawn of electricity. Even the trade organization of electrical manufacturers disagrees with you. Quoting the National Electric Code, "the NEC takes on real significance when it is adopted into law by states and local jurisdictions." Source: http://www.nema.org/Technical/FieldReps/Pages/National-Electrical-Code.aspx http://www.nema.org/Technical/FieldReps/Pages/National-Elect...

by abalone 13y ago

dnautics 13y ago

you don't suppose the danger of the market for medicine in the US prior to the 20th century had anything to do with the fact that chemistry didn't exist as a discipline? Just what do you expect them to have regulated? The free market is quite good at providing consumers information, but often only if the consumers demand it. For a few decades now, consumers have gradually become more ethical in their consumption choices, and the markets are reflecting that. It's a long road and there are certainly many, many places where things can be improved. By contrast, consider that there is a lot of demand for certain values, like transparency, honesty, not sexually harassing your underlings, in government, and exactly how responsive do you suppose it's been? The faulty assumption is that government will somehow be 'the betters' of the general public. But every indication of the narcissistic type that gets elected, and the petty bureaucratic authoritarian that is unelected, suggests that those advancement in government may not necessarily select for those traits you want. Neither does capitalism (as it's structured today), but at least consumers have a direct option to opt-out of unethical things done with their money, which they do not for government. To pick another "fundamental", why do you suppose lightbulbs don't explode, and various and sundry electrical equipment doesn't electrocute you in the US? It's because regulation is being done by a private, nonprofit entity (the underwriter's laboratories) which goes through and certifies equipment for consumption. A good example of the free market working quite well to ensure safety, beyond even what the consumer might expect, with far less government interference.

abalone 13y ago
> For a few decades now, consumers have gradually become more ethical in their consumption choices Look at the history behind that. It came out of the 60s. Massive popular organization against the system. A gigantic non-market force that effected greater awareness of environmental destruction, the conditions of production and so forth. Consumers didn't just wake up one day with new preferences. They rioted against the market system. P.S. You forgot about OSHA federal electrical safety regulations.
- dnautics 13y ago
  OSHA is only for the workplace and dates to 1970. UL goes back to the turn of the previous century. I don't know for sure, but I'd bet most electrical standards for OSHA defer to the UL standard.
  - abalone 13y ago
    OSHA just federalized it. Electrical safety has been regulated at the state and local level since practically the dawn of electricity. Even the trade organization of electrical manufacturers disagrees with you. Quoting the National Electric Code, "the NEC takes on real significance when it is adopted into law by states and local jurisdictions." Source: http://www.nema.org/Technical/FieldReps/Pages/National-Electrical-Code.aspx http://www.nema.org/Technical/FieldReps/Pages/National-Elect...