4 ms·

On the flip side, I had a junior dev quit without ever addressing any of his issues with me. Even in reviews where I asked him if he had any issues and even wh

by mason55 13y ago

On the flip side, I had a junior dev quit without ever addressing any of his issues with me. Even in reviews where I asked him if he had any issues and even when I made it clear that he could come talk to me with any problems he had. We still had him work out his last two weeks and took him out to happy hour his second to last night... and then his last day he never showed up to do an exit interview and finish some handoffs.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
georgemcbay 13y ago
I don't know the particulars of the case you're talking about, but sometimes even if you're working at a place that you like and you aren't actively looking for work, other work finds you and you wind up with an offer that is far more attractive than your current place. This is why companies should always be proactively adjusting compensation, perks, etc to retain the people they can't afford to lose, though very few actually do this. In the end though, even if a company does keep up on the retaining side there are lots of reasons (eg. more interesting technical stack, new project instead of maintaining old one, etc) why someone who is mostly happy may still leave a job for another. Having said all of that, it sucks that the dev didn't show up for the last day. I hate exit interviews, but I'll still do them.
- hga 13y ago
  No, just no. There is absolutely no upside to the employee in doing an exit intervew; rather than going into details, Nick "Ask the Headhunter" Corcodilos lays it out very well: http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/haexit.htm http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/haexit.htm First graph: "Exit interviews fascinate me like cockroaches do. An exit interview is the meeting a company's human resources department has with an employee who has been terminated or who has resigned. Like the Top Ten Stupid Interview Questions, exit interviews are the cockroaches of the human resources world: no one knows why they exist, no one can justify or eliminate them, and they will likely survive into the third millennium."
  - georgemcbay 13y ago
    Like I said, I hate them. I'll still do them, though. I don't mind jumping through the hoop and if the company really wants to hear the reasons I left, so be it, I will tell them bluntly and honestly. If they ask me personal questions I don't wish to answer, I will refuse to answer them. But I'll do the interview if they really want to do it (assuming, of course, I'm still living on their dime).
  - h2s 13y ago
    Personally, I'm glad I co-operated with my previous employer by delving into the specific factors that led to my decision to leave. Despite the fact that I obviously left, I really liked those people, and sometimes you go out on a limb for people you like. My feedback provided a written-down justification for investing in some much-needed improvements to the way they built software. A few things tangibly improved as a direct result, and that is valuable to me.
    - hga 13y ago
      This is something one has to make a judgement call on. E.g. in your case it didn't necessarily help you, but you judged correctly that it might help your friends. At that point you have a risk/reward trade off, and an absolute "NO!" rule that's based on the generally correct perception there's no reward is less relevant. BTW, did you give this feedback to HR or to a manager type? Headhunter Corcodilos is particularly inveighing against the former, although a lot of his points apply in all circumstances. And he does allow for doing this with the right person, with a strong recommendation of waiting a couple weeks after you're gone. To finish, there's always the question of "Why will they listen this time?", but, hey, I was born, raised and have retired to Missouri, where we're famous for our mules. And I was told the first rule in interacting with them is to get their attention with a sturdy piece of wood. I'm sure in some situations, especially the ones where you know all the players, that can actually work, even if it takes something even more drastic like resigning. Hmmm, you might even point out that they should try playing this game before they lose the next person....
    - mason55 13y ago
      Likewise, as an engineering manager and not an HR drone (my company doesn't even have HR yet), the point of my exit interview is to improve my team and company. The hope is that a departing employee can feel a little more free about giving feedback. I suppose the flip side is that people will say I should be eliciting that feedback all the time, and I do, but there's a difference between giving feedback to your superior and your former superior.
- thirdtruck 13y ago
  I expressly declined to participate in my last one. After researching the topic online, I found that there's negative value to the employee in those interviews. For example: complaints will get back to managers, reducing their value as references. They serve no higher purpose other than to make things easier for the employer in the event of a post-departure lawsuit.
  - slantyyz 13y ago
    >> For example: complaints will get back to managers, reducing their value as references. Isn't it a good practice to only use references who are already in your back pocket? >> They serve no higher purpose other than to make things easier for the employer in the event of a post-departure lawsuit. In my mind, the only purpose they serve is to justify the existence/value of the HR department.
    - mason55 13y ago
      > In my mind, the only purpose they serve is to justify the existence/value of the HR department. You guys must not have any management or team lead experience. I'm an engineering manger who does a lot more engineering than managing but that said, if someone is leaving my team I'd like some time to sit and discuss why for my own benefit. Feedback on things we can improve, things that work well, etc. I'm sure big companies have shitty exit interviews but if you're a team lead or manager and you don't want to discuss why your employee is leaving then you seriously need to reexamine your management philosophy.
      - slantyyz 13y ago
        Well, I've got more than 10 years of management and team lead experience. You don't need an exit interview. I usually know when people are unhappy before they even quit. While I do not try to be friends with people who have worked for me, they've known me to be straightforward and honest and to not be a puppet of the higher ups. Most of them have had no issue letting me know their grievances as they occur during normal working life, and they have a good idea of what changes are within my scope of control and those that are not. Also, the best time to ask those questions is when you're being handed the resignation letter. If your track record with the employee is good, i.e., they know you don't get bitter about them leaving, you'll probably get pretty honest and truthful responses. A formal exit interview in my mind is a waste of time.
- kadabra9 13y ago
  > This is why companies should always be proactively adjusting compensation, perks, etc to retain the people they can't afford to lose, though very few actually do this. Precisely. It's amazing how quickly some companies will only take a reactive approach to retaining top employees, then sit stunned when they walk out the door. The last job I left, my current employer counter-offered to match my new salary, and tossed out a "discretionary bonus" they supposedly had been planning to give me as an incentive to stay. I politely declined. What's funny is if they had taken me aside before I even considered looking for a new job, and simply said something like, "Hey, you're doing a great job. We want to give you /raise|bonus|perk/ to let you know you're appreciated" it would have meant the world, at least in my eyes, and I wouldn't have begun considering other opportunities. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, sometimes good work finds you, and in cases like that there really isn't much your employer can do, but I think the larger point is often there are a lot of things they CAN do to retain good employees and a lot of companies aren't doing them.
evilduck 13y ago
In my own experience workplaces simply don't change based on complaints from the bottom up. A junior dev that perceived everyone else as being okay with the status quo probably thought it was easier to find another opportunity than to rock the boat. Add to it that strategic job hopping virtually guarantees a raise or promotion faster and better than waiting for your current employer to do so and I would totally do what your junior dev did.

by mason55 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

georgemcbay 13y ago

I don't know the particulars of the case you're talking about, but sometimes even if you're working at a place that you like and you aren't actively looking for work, other work finds you and you wind up with an offer that is far more attractive than your current place. This is why companies should always be proactively adjusting compensation, perks, etc to retain the people they can't afford to lose, though very few actually do this. In the end though, even if a company does keep up on the retaining side there are lots of reasons (eg. more interesting technical stack, new project instead of maintaining old one, etc) why someone who is mostly happy may still leave a job for another. Having said all of that, it sucks that the dev didn't show up for the last day. I hate exit interviews, but I'll still do them.

hga 13y ago
No, just no. There is absolutely no upside to the employee in doing an exit intervew; rather than going into details, Nick "Ask the Headhunter" Corcodilos lays it out very well: http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/haexit.htm http://www.asktheheadhunter.com/haexit.htm First graph: "Exit interviews fascinate me like cockroaches do. An exit interview is the meeting a company's human resources department has with an employee who has been terminated or who has resigned. Like the Top Ten Stupid Interview Questions, exit interviews are the cockroaches of the human resources world: no one knows why they exist, no one can justify or eliminate them, and they will likely survive into the third millennium."
- georgemcbay 13y ago
  Like I said, I hate them. I'll still do them, though. I don't mind jumping through the hoop and if the company really wants to hear the reasons I left, so be it, I will tell them bluntly and honestly. If they ask me personal questions I don't wish to answer, I will refuse to answer them. But I'll do the interview if they really want to do it (assuming, of course, I'm still living on their dime).
- h2s 13y ago
  Personally, I'm glad I co-operated with my previous employer by delving into the specific factors that led to my decision to leave. Despite the fact that I obviously left, I really liked those people, and sometimes you go out on a limb for people you like. My feedback provided a written-down justification for investing in some much-needed improvements to the way they built software. A few things tangibly improved as a direct result, and that is valuable to me.
  - hga 13y ago
    This is something one has to make a judgement call on. E.g. in your case it didn't necessarily help you, but you judged correctly that it might help your friends. At that point you have a risk/reward trade off, and an absolute "NO!" rule that's based on the generally correct perception there's no reward is less relevant. BTW, did you give this feedback to HR or to a manager type? Headhunter Corcodilos is particularly inveighing against the former, although a lot of his points apply in all circumstances. And he does allow for doing this with the right person, with a strong recommendation of waiting a couple weeks after you're gone. To finish, there's always the question of "Why will they listen this time?", but, hey, I was born, raised and have retired to Missouri, where we're famous for our mules. And I was told the first rule in interacting with them is to get their attention with a sturdy piece of wood. I'm sure in some situations, especially the ones where you know all the players, that can actually work, even if it takes something even more drastic like resigning. Hmmm, you might even point out that they should try playing this game before they lose the next person....
  - mason55 13y ago
    Likewise, as an engineering manager and not an HR drone (my company doesn't even have HR yet), the point of my exit interview is to improve my team and company. The hope is that a departing employee can feel a little more free about giving feedback. I suppose the flip side is that people will say I should be eliciting that feedback all the time, and I do, but there's a difference between giving feedback to your superior and your former superior.
thirdtruck 13y ago
I expressly declined to participate in my last one. After researching the topic online, I found that there's negative value to the employee in those interviews. For example: complaints will get back to managers, reducing their value as references. They serve no higher purpose other than to make things easier for the employer in the event of a post-departure lawsuit.
- slantyyz 13y ago
  >> For example: complaints will get back to managers, reducing their value as references. Isn't it a good practice to only use references who are already in your back pocket? >> They serve no higher purpose other than to make things easier for the employer in the event of a post-departure lawsuit. In my mind, the only purpose they serve is to justify the existence/value of the HR department.
  - mason55 13y ago
    > In my mind, the only purpose they serve is to justify the existence/value of the HR department. You guys must not have any management or team lead experience. I'm an engineering manger who does a lot more engineering than managing but that said, if someone is leaving my team I'd like some time to sit and discuss why for my own benefit. Feedback on things we can improve, things that work well, etc. I'm sure big companies have shitty exit interviews but if you're a team lead or manager and you don't want to discuss why your employee is leaving then you seriously need to reexamine your management philosophy.
    - slantyyz 13y ago
      Well, I've got more than 10 years of management and team lead experience. You don't need an exit interview. I usually know when people are unhappy before they even quit. While I do not try to be friends with people who have worked for me, they've known me to be straightforward and honest and to not be a puppet of the higher ups. Most of them have had no issue letting me know their grievances as they occur during normal working life, and they have a good idea of what changes are within my scope of control and those that are not. Also, the best time to ask those questions is when you're being handed the resignation letter. If your track record with the employee is good, i.e., they know you don't get bitter about them leaving, you'll probably get pretty honest and truthful responses. A formal exit interview in my mind is a waste of time.
kadabra9 13y ago
> This is why companies should always be proactively adjusting compensation, perks, etc to retain the people they can't afford to lose, though very few actually do this. Precisely. It's amazing how quickly some companies will only take a reactive approach to retaining top employees, then sit stunned when they walk out the door. The last job I left, my current employer counter-offered to match my new salary, and tossed out a "discretionary bonus" they supposedly had been planning to give me as an incentive to stay. I politely declined. What's funny is if they had taken me aside before I even considered looking for a new job, and simply said something like, "Hey, you're doing a great job. We want to give you /raise|bonus|perk/ to let you know you're appreciated" it would have meant the world, at least in my eyes, and I wouldn't have begun considering other opportunities. As was pointed out earlier in the thread, sometimes good work finds you, and in cases like that there really isn't much your employer can do, but I think the larger point is often there are a lot of things they CAN do to retain good employees and a lot of companies aren't doing them.

evilduck 13y ago

In my own experience workplaces simply don't change based on complaints from the bottom up. A junior dev that perceived everyone else as being okay with the status quo probably thought it was easier to find another opportunity than to rock the boat. Add to it that strategic job hopping virtually guarantees a raise or promotion faster and better than waiting for your current employer to do so and I would totally do what your junior dev did.