4 ms·

This seems like a lot of rules... and kind of unfriendly. Especially for just a short stint working remotely. Whats the worst that could happen if one of the w

by utnick 13y ago

This seems like a lot of rules... and kind of unfriendly. Especially for just a short stint working remotely. Whats the worst that could happen if one of the workers has a less than ideal setup while temporarily working remotely for a few days? Would it really affect company outcomes? If not, I think developer happiness would be improved by having a more laissez-faire attitude from management.

fphhotchips 13y ago
To me this isn't about seeming friendly or unfriendly, it's about defining boundaries of what is vacation time and what isn't. It's about saying "No, what you're doing isn't working from home, it's vacation. Don't feel guilty about not getting anything done, just go and have a break." Compare that to being fuzzy about it - you're not really having a decent break (because you're trying to get work done) and you're not getting any work done (because your 8 year old niece is pulling on your shirt, your brother wants to go golfing and your dad has the TV up extra loud).
- LordHumungous 13y ago
  That's why a good manager should define goals of things that need to get done. As long as the goals are being met, management should allow their developers the freedom to choose their own work environment and hours, within reasonable bounds. Demanding that your employees have headsets at home is called micromanaging.
  - kamaal 13y ago
    >>That's why a good manager should define goals of things that need to get done. Good managers are nearly extinct species, whom you encounter once in a while in years. The remainder get to become managers by their political work and a results oriented work environment is something they will never build. Because if we were to measure progress by results, those managers will be the first to be fired. >>As long as the goals are being met, management should allow their developers the freedom to choose their own work environment and hours Their goals are very different than our goals. The goal of leaders is to produce results. The goal of management is to keep the wheels running, regardless of whether the running produces any results. A good manager is automatically a leader.
  - fphhotchips 13y ago
    But it's not! If you're trying to maintain the communication benefits offered by an office structure, while also allowing WFH, his reasoning is actually pretty good. Laptop speakers are annoying, and hearing every key stroke from your laptop's keys is even worse. A headset is not even $20 - and a directional clip-on mic is even less. Further, their goal is to encourage good work/life separation even when working from home. If you can't maintain that separation, it seems FogCreek would rather you clock it up to 'life' time than blur the lines. That's just good management - working with distraction is going to result in poor output. Goal oriented management in this scenario, particularly when this may not be a normal part of the workers routine, could result in stress and poor work. Far better that if you can't have a good work environment then you just take a break and increase your output when you get back.
breitling 13y ago
I get the same unfriendly feel from this piece, but I guess this is a company in transition from not allowing remote work at all to allowing it now. Hopefully, as it becomes more common, they will relax the rules a bit.
- mistermann 13y ago
  Indeed, this piece was obviously written by a bunch of greenhorns. For their sake I hope they take some of the sage advice offered in this thread from the numerous people who have run profitable businesses with multiple employees for several years.
wging 13y ago
Seems targeted at people who are remote long-term. Maybe a little more reasonable in that light. But for short-term people, >Approval from your team lead. Basically, just tell someone well in advance if you’re going to be altering your work arrangement, temporarily or permanently. seems counterproductive. Sometimes problems come up and you suddenly need to be at home tomorrow to meet the cable guy, who has committed to come between 6 AM and 9 PM, but will only be there for 15 minutes.
- kevin 13y ago
  I think "approval" is less formal than you might imagine for a company like Fog Creek and most startups. Sending a quick email to let the person in charge know that you're going to be some place unexpected is totally reasonable.
  - slantyyz 13y ago
    Your point is right on, but I think Fog Creek has been around long enough to no longer be considered a startup.
  - wging 13y ago
    Then why call it approval?
seiji 13y ago
Yeah, it's an insane number of rules. (is video chat required? why video chat?) Down the page they mention The burden is on you to show that you’re being productive. -- that just sounds outright authoritarian and demeaning. Strict policies calling people out as "do this ... or else" don't exactly engender trust. I think they cover most of our complaints in the poorly worded Known availability and overlap with your team section. Most places have three levels of "work from home." There's full speed "work from home" where you're getting more done because you're not distracted by office shenanigans. There's half speed "work from home" where you're not plowing through, but you're keeping up with all communications/chats and fully available if anybody needs you. Then there's fill-in-the-gap "work from home" where you're checking into work systems in the morning, getting some things done, going to an intermediate step in the middle [an appointment at the house, going to a doctor on the way to work at 11am, going to the DMV at 10:30am], then going into the office for the rest of the day. I think they're saying all of the above is okay, just communicate what your availability will be up front (which seems to go against their other policies of "work in a nuclear fallout shelter away from all distractions and you better have no other responsibilities at the same time either — we own you").
- jacques_chester 13y ago
  > Yeah, it's an insane number of rules. I think this is hyperbole. They all basically boil down to: if you work from home, please work from home. And keep in touch. I work from home. As a rule, the best-running projects are those with daily video meetings. The 2nd best involve phone calls. The worst involve emails. Faces have enormous bandwidth. Voices a bit less. Email has bugger all for the things that matter.
  - seiji 13y ago
    Working from home also means: less stress because you don't have to be constantly "on" and playing the visibly social game eight hours a day (or pretending certain morons in the office aren't morons), slightly less availability (or non-interruptable availability on your schedule, not theirs) to get more focused work done, and no pants. Perhaps "insane number" is wrong. I probably meant "insanely specific requirements." The 1 wasn't even running to rector st this evening, so I couldn't get to work even if I wanted to.
misterjangles 13y ago
If you ever own a company and you find yourself writing a salary check to somebody who you suspect did jack-shit all week - it's kinda amazing how difficult it is to not go into Ebeneezer Scrooge mode. Even if you know that people are not "on" 24/7. It can be tough to walk by somebody's desk and see them screwing around on Facebook instead of working - when you are the guy writing the checks. It takes a lot of faith. This is the same whether they are working on site or remote. It's easy to talk a big talk about what a generous boss you would be - but it is very different when you are responsible for meeting payroll week after week. I would challenge anybody to try it. Joel's rules strike me as a little more specific than necessary, but I can very much relate to his feelings. I have experienced devs "working from home" who disappear all day and hold up the whole team because we can't find them to ask a quick question. The point is that when you say you are on the clock - then you should be working. I personally wouldn't care so much about the exact specifics of your internet connection or whatever. But, if you tell me that you're working then I expect that you're actually at your computer working and not laying by the pool or playing video games. It's equally easy to say that you'd just fire somebody who you did not trust to work at home with no rules. But, as with many things, it's easy to take this hard line approach with your imaginary company and theoretical employees - quite another thing in reality though. Some people are very productive but maybe not so disciplined. A few sensible rules and expectations can prevent problems.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- redidas 13y ago
  Somebody not actually working at work could be due to many different factors. Yes one could be that they are lazy and half-assing their job, but it also could be that they just aren't motivated. Maybe they don't feel connected with their job. Ideally, an employee is motivated to to a good job for reasons other than its a daily grind and its what they have to do. The HR industry terms this "Employee Engagement." If I had to guess, Fog Creek has quite a few "disengaged" employees.
  - misterjangles 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
pjzedalis 13y ago
Well the real reason is FogBugz doesn't know how to predict productivity for remote workers.
tghw 13y ago
How is this a lot of rules? As far as I can see, it boils down to three: 1. Be able to communicate with your team. 2. Have a place where you can work, distraction free. 3. Get approval from your team lead. (This one barely counts, since the answer would never be no.)
- jaggederest 13y ago
  #3 then becomes the worst kind of rule, one that is no only under unanticipated circumstances which are not going to be covered by rules, by definition.
- eropple 13y ago
  > 2. Have a place where you can work, distraction free. From working remotely for the last year, I've found that basically any table is a fine remote work spot for me. Kitchen table, Starbucks, whatever. I have learned that I don't get appreciably distracted by ambience or even really by light conversation[1] (unless doing something particularly out-of-the-ordinary in terms of difficulty, in which case it's lock-the-doors time); if I did have concentration issues, don't you--y'know--think that I wouldn't do the things that triggered them. Because I'm an adult and I'm competent? The assumption that people aren't is why, to me, these edicts read as kind of wacky. [1] - Hell, I'm getting a coworking space because I find that that ambience and that light social friction makes me better at what I do. =)

by utnick 13y ago

fphhotchips 13y ago

To me this isn't about seeming friendly or unfriendly, it's about defining boundaries of what is vacation time and what isn't. It's about saying "No, what you're doing isn't working from home, it's vacation. Don't feel guilty about not getting anything done, just go and have a break." Compare that to being fuzzy about it - you're not really having a decent break (because you're trying to get work done) and you're not getting any work done (because your 8 year old niece is pulling on your shirt, your brother wants to go golfing and your dad has the TV up extra loud).

LordHumungous 13y ago
That's why a good manager should define goals of things that need to get done. As long as the goals are being met, management should allow their developers the freedom to choose their own work environment and hours, within reasonable bounds. Demanding that your employees have headsets at home is called micromanaging.
- kamaal 13y ago
  >>That's why a good manager should define goals of things that need to get done. Good managers are nearly extinct species, whom you encounter once in a while in years. The remainder get to become managers by their political work and a results oriented work environment is something they will never build. Because if we were to measure progress by results, those managers will be the first to be fired. >>As long as the goals are being met, management should allow their developers the freedom to choose their own work environment and hours Their goals are very different than our goals. The goal of leaders is to produce results. The goal of management is to keep the wheels running, regardless of whether the running produces any results. A good manager is automatically a leader.
- fphhotchips 13y ago
  But it's not! If you're trying to maintain the communication benefits offered by an office structure, while also allowing WFH, his reasoning is actually pretty good. Laptop speakers are annoying, and hearing every key stroke from your laptop's keys is even worse. A headset is not even $20 - and a directional clip-on mic is even less. Further, their goal is to encourage good work/life separation even when working from home. If you can't maintain that separation, it seems FogCreek would rather you clock it up to 'life' time than blur the lines. That's just good management - working with distraction is going to result in poor output. Goal oriented management in this scenario, particularly when this may not be a normal part of the workers routine, could result in stress and poor work. Far better that if you can't have a good work environment then you just take a break and increase your output when you get back.

breitling 13y ago

I get the same unfriendly feel from this piece, but I guess this is a company in transition from not allowing remote work at all to allowing it now. Hopefully, as it becomes more common, they will relax the rules a bit.

mistermann 13y ago
Indeed, this piece was obviously written by a bunch of greenhorns. For their sake I hope they take some of the sage advice offered in this thread from the numerous people who have run profitable businesses with multiple employees for several years.

wging 13y ago

Seems targeted at people who are remote long-term. Maybe a little more reasonable in that light. But for short-term people, >Approval from your team lead. Basically, just tell someone well in advance if you’re going to be altering your work arrangement, temporarily or permanently. seems counterproductive. Sometimes problems come up and you suddenly need to be at home tomorrow to meet the cable guy, who has committed to come between 6 AM and 9 PM, but will only be there for 15 minutes.

kevin 13y ago
I think "approval" is less formal than you might imagine for a company like Fog Creek and most startups. Sending a quick email to let the person in charge know that you're going to be some place unexpected is totally reasonable.
- slantyyz 13y ago
  Your point is right on, but I think Fog Creek has been around long enough to no longer be considered a startup.
- wging 13y ago
  Then why call it approval?

seiji 13y ago

Yeah, it's an insane number of rules. (is video chat required? why video chat?) Down the page they mention The burden is on you to show that you’re being productive. -- that just sounds outright authoritarian and demeaning. Strict policies calling people out as "do this ... or else" don't exactly engender trust. I think they cover most of our complaints in the poorly worded Known availability and overlap with your team section. Most places have three levels of "work from home." There's full speed "work from home" where you're getting more done because you're not distracted by office shenanigans. There's half speed "work from home" where you're not plowing through, but you're keeping up with all communications/chats and fully available if anybody needs you. Then there's fill-in-the-gap "work from home" where you're checking into work systems in the morning, getting some things done, going to an intermediate step in the middle [an appointment at the house, going to a doctor on the way to work at 11am, going to the DMV at 10:30am], then going into the office for the rest of the day. I think they're saying all of the above is okay, just communicate what your availability will be up front (which seems to go against their other policies of "work in a nuclear fallout shelter away from all distractions and you better have no other responsibilities at the same time either — we own you").

jacques_chester 13y ago
> Yeah, it's an insane number of rules. I think this is hyperbole. They all basically boil down to: if you work from home, please work from home. And keep in touch. I work from home. As a rule, the best-running projects are those with daily video meetings. The 2nd best involve phone calls. The worst involve emails. Faces have enormous bandwidth. Voices a bit less. Email has bugger all for the things that matter.
- seiji 13y ago
  Working from home also means: less stress because you don't have to be constantly "on" and playing the visibly social game eight hours a day (or pretending certain morons in the office aren't morons), slightly less availability (or non-interruptable availability on your schedule, not theirs) to get more focused work done, and no pants. Perhaps "insane number" is wrong. I probably meant "insanely specific requirements." The 1 wasn't even running to rector st this evening, so I couldn't get to work even if I wanted to.

misterjangles 13y ago

If you ever own a company and you find yourself writing a salary check to somebody who you suspect did jack-shit all week - it's kinda amazing how difficult it is to not go into Ebeneezer Scrooge mode. Even if you know that people are not "on" 24/7. It can be tough to walk by somebody's desk and see them screwing around on Facebook instead of working - when you are the guy writing the checks. It takes a lot of faith. This is the same whether they are working on site or remote. It's easy to talk a big talk about what a generous boss you would be - but it is very different when you are responsible for meeting payroll week after week. I would challenge anybody to try it. Joel's rules strike me as a little more specific than necessary, but I can very much relate to his feelings. I have experienced devs "working from home" who disappear all day and hold up the whole team because we can't find them to ask a quick question. The point is that when you say you are on the clock - then you should be working. I personally wouldn't care so much about the exact specifics of your internet connection or whatever. But, if you tell me that you're working then I expect that you're actually at your computer working and not laying by the pool or playing video games. It's equally easy to say that you'd just fire somebody who you did not trust to work at home with no rules. But, as with many things, it's easy to take this hard line approach with your imaginary company and theoretical employees - quite another thing in reality though. Some people are very productive but maybe not so disciplined. A few sensible rules and expectations can prevent problems.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
redidas 13y ago
Somebody not actually working at work could be due to many different factors. Yes one could be that they are lazy and half-assing their job, but it also could be that they just aren't motivated. Maybe they don't feel connected with their job. Ideally, an employee is motivated to to a good job for reasons other than its a daily grind and its what they have to do. The HR industry terms this "Employee Engagement." If I had to guess, Fog Creek has quite a few "disengaged" employees.
- misterjangles 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

pjzedalis 13y ago

Well the real reason is FogBugz doesn't know how to predict productivity for remote workers.

tghw 13y ago

How is this a lot of rules? As far as I can see, it boils down to three: 1. Be able to communicate with your team. 2. Have a place where you can work, distraction free. 3. Get approval from your team lead. (This one barely counts, since the answer would never be no.)

jaggederest 13y ago
#3 then becomes the worst kind of rule, one that is no only under unanticipated circumstances which are not going to be covered by rules, by definition.
eropple 13y ago
> 2. Have a place where you can work, distraction free. From working remotely for the last year, I've found that basically any table is a fine remote work spot for me. Kitchen table, Starbucks, whatever. I have learned that I don't get appreciably distracted by ambience or even really by light conversation[1] (unless doing something particularly out-of-the-ordinary in terms of difficulty, in which case it's lock-the-doors time); if I did have concentration issues, don't you--y'know--think that I wouldn't do the things that triggered them. Because I'm an adult and I'm competent? The assumption that people aren't is why, to me, these edicts read as kind of wacky. [1] - Hell, I'm getting a coworking space because I find that that ambience and that light social friction makes me better at what I do. =)