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> No, the arrows work (should work, may be a problem on some terminals/terminal emulators, but that's common for console editors) It's not common in modern tim

by lutusp 13y ago

> No, the arrows work (should work, may be a problem on some terminals/terminal emulators, but that's common for console editors) It's not common in modern times for any of this to be either necessary or justifiable. But now that we're no longer discussing how inefficient vim is, but discussing tricks meant to minimize its acknowledged inefficiency, I think we're done. > > I wold pass the mouse cursor across the desired characters, thus selecting them (any subset of characters or words or paragraphs, and very, very fast) > Well... I would like to measure this somehow. You can measure it by noticing that most modern computers since 1980 have control keys, and mice, and nearly none of them have vi or vim installed. People have voted against terminal editors with their mice, and with an absolute minimum of keystrokes. > We - Vim users here - can probably show you shorter and more efficient counterpart to any example you'd come up with. This is the most astonishing conversation I've had in weeks. I can also show you more efficient ways to push a rock up a steep slope while wearing a hair shirt, but the risk is that some spoilsport may mention that the entire exercise is unnecessary. I started out using vi. Then I wrote Apple Writer, which was more efficient by far. Then I dumped Apple Writer for a more efficient editor that supported a mouse. Then I dumped that editor for a better one, ad infinitum. Lazy? You bet -- I have better things to do with my time than remember vim's arcane ways to avoid the use of the keys that are on all modern keyboards, or the pointing devices that have become popular since 1970.

klibertp 13y ago
> It's not common in modern times for any of this Any of which? Please, be more precise. You mean that it's not common for certain keys to be mixed up in console applications? Please... > You can measure it by noticing that most modern computers since 1980 have Oh well, you have a curious definition of measurement then. > some spoilsport may mention that the entire exercise is unnecessary You mean editing text is unnecessary? Or what exactly? > I started out using vi. I came to Vim after using Visual Studio, Komodo IDE and some others... > Then I dumped Apple Writer for a more efficient editor that supported a mouse. ...then I dumped it in favor of Emacs, which supported much better scripting language. > the pointing devices that have become popular since 1970 You still didn't provide any kind of evidence that editing with mouse is faster than using pure-keyboard interface. Or do you believe that it was text editing that drove mouse adoption? Are you completely sure that it was working with text that demanded mouse and made mouse popular? Is it that impossible to believe that once mouse became popular thanks to other kinds of programs the editors started to support it? I'm glad you wrote your Apple Writer. I'm less amused by your mistaken beliefs you insist on advertising in every Vim related thread. You may be a reason I finally check out this script for not showing HN comments of specific people.
- aidos 13y ago
  This is one of the strangest threads I've been involved in on HN. I feel like we're just being baited by a clever troll. Attacked with adhomenens and given strawman agruements. Just to say - I'm aligned with your views and I know it doesn't matter - but it's annoying to be insulted by a hypocrite.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > You still didn't provide any kind of evidence that editing with mouse is faster than using pure-keyboard interface. How about the direction of computer history? Vi was superseded by Apple Writer (and other editors, some of them better) that supported the existence of control characters, those editors were superseded by editors that supported mice, and those editors have in turn been improved on to the present day. Do you really think this was all homage to empty fashion, and that modern editors require more work than vi/vim? Apart from that, it's been proven over and over again that pointing devices improve the efficiency of text editing, compared to an editor that only has control characters to guide the process, and much less so for editors like vi/vim that don't have the advantage of control characters. Reference: http://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html http://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html Quote: * Test subjects consistently report that keyboarding is faster than mousing. * The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding. End quote (BTW the above is a famous quote by a friend of mine from the early Apple days). Remember that the above comparison, and all modern comparisons, only compare mouse-dominated use with keyboard-only use for keyboards having control characters -- none of them take on the added burden of vi/vim's modes, which result from the absence of control characters on early keyboards. > I'm less amused by your mistaken beliefs ... I just proved that my views aren't beliefs, they're backed up by research, and they are not mistaken. You are not arguing in good faith -- you have no evidence for your position, but you have strong feelings. Not a situation conducive to generating light, as opposed to heat.
  - aidos 13y ago
    I'm going to take the bait one more time. That's not research - it's someone talking about research in the abstract. There are no details but it's clear from the context that they're talking about something completely different. "In the early (pre-release) days of Lisa, we had command keys instead of pull-down menus. One of the primary reasons we abandoned command keys was the difficulty of coming up with fixed definitions that could be easily transported from application to application. Users were constantly confused." "It takes two seconds to decide upon which special-function key to press." No, it doesn't. When my cursor is on a function name I want to change in vim, I type 'ciw' and then word is gone and I'm in insert mode replacing it. There's no 2 seconds about it. Your research doesn't apply to this scenario and you know it. But it's fine - you do it your way, we'll do it ours. There's no problem with that.

by lutusp 13y ago

klibertp 13y ago

> It's not common in modern times for any of this Any of which? Please, be more precise. You mean that it's not common for certain keys to be mixed up in console applications? Please... > You can measure it by noticing that most modern computers since 1980 have Oh well, you have a curious definition of measurement then. > some spoilsport may mention that the entire exercise is unnecessary You mean editing text is unnecessary? Or what exactly? > I started out using vi. I came to Vim after using Visual Studio, Komodo IDE and some others... > Then I dumped Apple Writer for a more efficient editor that supported a mouse. ...then I dumped it in favor of Emacs, which supported much better scripting language. > the pointing devices that have become popular since 1970 You still didn't provide any kind of evidence that editing with mouse is faster than using pure-keyboard interface. Or do you believe that it was text editing that drove mouse adoption? Are you completely sure that it was working with text that demanded mouse and made mouse popular? Is it that impossible to believe that once mouse became popular thanks to other kinds of programs the editors started to support it? I'm glad you wrote your Apple Writer. I'm less amused by your mistaken beliefs you insist on advertising in every Vim related thread. You may be a reason I finally check out this script for not showing HN comments of specific people.

aidos 13y ago
This is one of the strangest threads I've been involved in on HN. I feel like we're just being baited by a clever troll. Attacked with adhomenens and given strawman agruements. Just to say - I'm aligned with your views and I know it doesn't matter - but it's annoying to be insulted by a hypocrite.
lutusp 13y ago
> You still didn't provide any kind of evidence that editing with mouse is faster than using pure-keyboard interface. How about the direction of computer history? Vi was superseded by Apple Writer (and other editors, some of them better) that supported the existence of control characters, those editors were superseded by editors that supported mice, and those editors have in turn been improved on to the present day. Do you really think this was all homage to empty fashion, and that modern editors require more work than vi/vim? Apart from that, it's been proven over and over again that pointing devices improve the efficiency of text editing, compared to an editor that only has control characters to guide the process, and much less so for editors like vi/vim that don't have the advantage of control characters. Reference: http://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html http://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html Quote: * Test subjects consistently report that keyboarding is faster than mousing. * The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding. End quote (BTW the above is a famous quote by a friend of mine from the early Apple days). Remember that the above comparison, and all modern comparisons, only compare mouse-dominated use with keyboard-only use for keyboards having control characters -- none of them take on the added burden of vi/vim's modes, which result from the absence of control characters on early keyboards. > I'm less amused by your mistaken beliefs ... I just proved that my views aren't beliefs, they're backed up by research, and they are not mistaken. You are not arguing in good faith -- you have no evidence for your position, but you have strong feelings. Not a situation conducive to generating light, as opposed to heat.
- aidos 13y ago
  I'm going to take the bait one more time. That's not research - it's someone talking about research in the abstract. There are no details but it's clear from the context that they're talking about something completely different. "In the early (pre-release) days of Lisa, we had command keys instead of pull-down menus. One of the primary reasons we abandoned command keys was the difficulty of coming up with fixed definitions that could be easily transported from application to application. Users were constantly confused." "It takes two seconds to decide upon which special-function key to press." No, it doesn't. When my cursor is on a function name I want to change in vim, I type 'ciw' and then word is gone and I'm in insert mode replacing it. There's no 2 seconds about it. Your research doesn't apply to this scenario and you know it. But it's fine - you do it your way, we'll do it ours. There's no problem with that.