4 ms·

One last reply from me for the time being: > * I am moving the cursor, but I want to enter text. To do so, I need to enter colon, i, Enter, then my first text

One last reply from me for the time being: > * I am moving the cursor, but I want to enter text. To do so, I need to enter colon, i, Enter, then my first text entry. That's incorrect. You can just press 'i' to enter insert mode in place. Or upper case 'I' to have Vim enter insert mode at the end of a line. Or upper case O for insert mode at the beginning of freshly inserted line below the current. Or 'a', 'A', 'c', 'C' and many other's for other kinds of movement/change+enter insert mode combos. > * I am entering text, but I want to move the cursor. To do so, I need to type Esc, Esc, then commence moving the cursor. No, the arrows work (should work, may be a problem on some terminals/terminal emulators, but that's common for console editors) in insert mode. No need for <esc> (and it's single <esc>, not double, anyway) if you want to move by a few characters. Ctrl+<arrow> works in insert mode, too, so you can move by words. You lose prefixes and other kinds of movements though. > * If while entering text, I want to do something besides move the cursor, I need to type Esc, colon, then a command letter, then its arguments. That's only true if the command is not bound to a sequence of keystrokes. If it is, it's frequently as efficient to type as in modeless editors, for example going to a certain line in Vim is done with <esc><number>G, while in Emacs it's default binding is M-g g <number> <enter>. If the command is not bound, both <esc> : <command> <args> <enter> and M-x <command> <enter> <args> <enter> beat navigating through menus with mouse in terms of efficiency and that's what they are for, not for the commonly used commands which should be (nv)maped or global-bind-key'ed anyway. > I don't need to "make it sound more complicated than it is." Well, you do, as shown above. > I wold pass the mouse cursor across the desired characters, thus selecting them (any subset of characters or words or paragraphs, and very, very fast) Well... I would like to measure this somehow. You assert that using a mouse for this is quicker, but present no evidence. I have no evidence for the contrary, so we can't really argue about this. I personally feel that reaching for the mouse and using it is slower than selecting text with keyboard and that the latter requires less manual precision, which matters to me. You can feel differently and I respect and accept it. We - Vim users here - can probably show you shorter and more efficient counterpart to any example you'd come up with. That you don't know these more efficient ways is a valid criticism of Vim in itself - which is not a popular claim among Vim users, but I think so - but it's argument for Vim not being friendly to beginners, not for it being inefficient.

aidos 13y ago
I agree with all your points. Minor correction: it's 'O' to insert above the current line, 'o' to insert below.
lutusp 13y ago
> No, the arrows work (should work, may be a problem on some terminals/terminal emulators, but that's common for console editors) It's not common in modern times for any of this to be either necessary or justifiable. But now that we're no longer discussing how inefficient vim is, but discussing tricks meant to minimize its acknowledged inefficiency, I think we're done. > > I wold pass the mouse cursor across the desired characters, thus selecting them (any subset of characters or words or paragraphs, and very, very fast) > Well... I would like to measure this somehow. You can measure it by noticing that most modern computers since 1980 have control keys, and mice, and nearly none of them have vi or vim installed. People have voted against terminal editors with their mice, and with an absolute minimum of keystrokes. > We - Vim users here - can probably show you shorter and more efficient counterpart to any example you'd come up with. This is the most astonishing conversation I've had in weeks. I can also show you more efficient ways to push a rock up a steep slope while wearing a hair shirt, but the risk is that some spoilsport may mention that the entire exercise is unnecessary. I started out using vi. Then I wrote Apple Writer, which was more efficient by far. Then I dumped Apple Writer for a more efficient editor that supported a mouse. Then I dumped that editor for a better one, ad infinitum. Lazy? You bet -- I have better things to do with my time than remember vim's arcane ways to avoid the use of the keys that are on all modern keyboards, or the pointing devices that have become popular since 1970.
- klibertp 13y ago
  > It's not common in modern times for any of this Any of which? Please, be more precise. You mean that it's not common for certain keys to be mixed up in console applications? Please... > You can measure it by noticing that most modern computers since 1980 have Oh well, you have a curious definition of measurement then. > some spoilsport may mention that the entire exercise is unnecessary You mean editing text is unnecessary? Or what exactly? > I started out using vi. I came to Vim after using Visual Studio, Komodo IDE and some others... > Then I dumped Apple Writer for a more efficient editor that supported a mouse. ...then I dumped it in favor of Emacs, which supported much better scripting language. > the pointing devices that have become popular since 1970 You still didn't provide any kind of evidence that editing with mouse is faster than using pure-keyboard interface. Or do you believe that it was text editing that drove mouse adoption? Are you completely sure that it was working with text that demanded mouse and made mouse popular? Is it that impossible to believe that once mouse became popular thanks to other kinds of programs the editors started to support it? I'm glad you wrote your Apple Writer. I'm less amused by your mistaken beliefs you insist on advertising in every Vim related thread. You may be a reason I finally check out this script for not showing HN comments of specific people.

aidos 13y ago

I agree with all your points. Minor correction: it's 'O' to insert above the current line, 'o' to insert below.

lutusp 13y ago

> No, the arrows work (should work, may be a problem on some terminals/terminal emulators, but that's common for console editors) It's not common in modern times for any of this to be either necessary or justifiable. But now that we're no longer discussing how inefficient vim is, but discussing tricks meant to minimize its acknowledged inefficiency, I think we're done. > > I wold pass the mouse cursor across the desired characters, thus selecting them (any subset of characters or words or paragraphs, and very, very fast) > Well... I would like to measure this somehow. You can measure it by noticing that most modern computers since 1980 have control keys, and mice, and nearly none of them have vi or vim installed. People have voted against terminal editors with their mice, and with an absolute minimum of keystrokes. > We - Vim users here - can probably show you shorter and more efficient counterpart to any example you'd come up with. This is the most astonishing conversation I've had in weeks. I can also show you more efficient ways to push a rock up a steep slope while wearing a hair shirt, but the risk is that some spoilsport may mention that the entire exercise is unnecessary. I started out using vi. Then I wrote Apple Writer, which was more efficient by far. Then I dumped Apple Writer for a more efficient editor that supported a mouse. Then I dumped that editor for a better one, ad infinitum. Lazy? You bet -- I have better things to do with my time than remember vim's arcane ways to avoid the use of the keys that are on all modern keyboards, or the pointing devices that have become popular since 1970.

klibertp 13y ago
> It's not common in modern times for any of this Any of which? Please, be more precise. You mean that it's not common for certain keys to be mixed up in console applications? Please... > You can measure it by noticing that most modern computers since 1980 have Oh well, you have a curious definition of measurement then. > some spoilsport may mention that the entire exercise is unnecessary You mean editing text is unnecessary? Or what exactly? > I started out using vi. I came to Vim after using Visual Studio, Komodo IDE and some others... > Then I dumped Apple Writer for a more efficient editor that supported a mouse. ...then I dumped it in favor of Emacs, which supported much better scripting language. > the pointing devices that have become popular since 1970 You still didn't provide any kind of evidence that editing with mouse is faster than using pure-keyboard interface. Or do you believe that it was text editing that drove mouse adoption? Are you completely sure that it was working with text that demanded mouse and made mouse popular? Is it that impossible to believe that once mouse became popular thanks to other kinds of programs the editors started to support it? I'm glad you wrote your Apple Writer. I'm less amused by your mistaken beliefs you insist on advertising in every Vim related thread. You may be a reason I finally check out this script for not showing HN comments of specific people.