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> This is factually incorrect ... If you, like most people, spend most of your time entering text, then it is factually correct that you must exit the text-ent

by lutusp 13y ago

> This is factually incorrect ... If you, like most people, spend most of your time entering text, then it is factually correct that you must exit the text-entry mode to do anything else. And do you know why this arrangement exists? Because there were teletype terminals and early glass terminals that didn't have control keys. No control keys, no way to exploit their existence. SO there had to be a magic character to switch from text entry to control mode. And the magic character was an ordinary character, sometimes used for text entry, sometimes interpreted as a command prefix. Keyboards have changed, but vi hasn't. Computers have mice and touch-sensitive displays, but vi can't exploit them. Operating systems have clipboards, but vi can't take advantage of that convention. You know -- don't get me started.

seren 13y ago
Vim/GVim actually do support the mouse since a while. You can select, copy/paste, resize your split windows, etc, using the mouse. GVim even has typical menus, not so different than wordpad. However, I agree with you that for other features, like using different fonts at once, Vim is limited or feels constrained.
jbri 13y ago
I'll point out that any modern version of vim uses mice just fine. It also uses the system clipboard just fine. The reason most vim users stick with the keyboard is because using a short key combination to select and manipulate text is measurably faster than moving your hand off the keyboard, manipulating a mouse or touchscreen, and then moving it back to continue typing.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > I'll point out that any modern version of vim uses mice just fine. It also uses the system clipboard just fine. What you see as vim appearing to exploit a mouse and system clipboard is actually Bash and (sometimes) a command-line app (example Konsole) doing so, or equivalent utilities outside vim in a non-GUI level. Those features work with any editor in exactly the same way. As to using the system clipboard just fine, you can copy text from vim or any other displayed source of text, but you cannot paste it, because it's not vim that's acting, or is in any way aware that text has been copied. > ... because using a short key combination to select and manipulate text is measurably faster than moving your hand off the keyboard, manipulating a mouse or touchscreen, and then moving it back to continue typing. Right -- the mouse was foisted on a gullible public willing to suffer a reduction in efficiency in order to have an electronic pet, all against their better interests. And the industry's usually diligent efficiency experts were all bribed to overlook the reduction in efficiency you've just brought to our attention.
  - MetaCosm 13y ago
    ... Vim (and plugins) can respond to mouse actions (for example, to open a file tree in NERDTree or Tagbar), so your mouse stuff is pure misinformation. This includes console vim or gui vim. As for integrating with the system clipboard, that clipboard lives somewhere (X11, OS-X, Windows System), it isn't magic, and vim can integrate with it in various ways dependent on the OS. On windows for example "set clipboard=unnamed" basically makes vim use the system clipboard, period. So... not sure if you are lying or misinformed.
  - Oletros 13y ago
    > Right -- the mouse was foisted on a gullible public willing to suffer a reduction in efficiency in order to have an electronic pet, all against their better interests. And the industry's usually diligent efficiency experts were all bribed to overlook the reduction in efficiency you've just brought to our attention. I'm not sure if you're just joking or you're just misinformed. For text editing, mouse is more inefficient than keystrokes
    - lutusp 13y ago
      > For text editing, mouse is more inefficient than keystrokes Your evidence for that is provided by the fact that the world eagerly adopted the mouse and abandoned vi/vim and similar programs, based solely on the advantages of modern methods. Your evidence for that is provided by the fact that I wrote an incremental improvement over vi, one that exploited the existence of control keys but didn't exploit a nonexistent mouse, and, even though it represented no great improvement, I retired on the proceeds at the age of 35. (My program was appropriately eclipsed by better, more advanced programs, that among other things did exploit the mouse.) > I'm not sure if you're just joking or you're just misinformed. Wake up and smell the Cappuccino. You are not living in reality.
      - jbri 13y ago
        There is indeed a massive advantage of a mouse over a keyboard-based interface - it's far, far more discoverable for novice or occasional users. In fact, I'd venture to say the mouse (and the corresponding advent of discoverable graphical interfaces) was the primary driver of making computers accessible to non-techies and hence largely responsible for the computing revolution. But, a keyboard-based interface is still more efficient for someone who can put in the time to learning how to use it efficiently (and customizing it to their specific work), and uses it regularly enough to maintain that knowledge. For a lot of people who write code for a living, a text editor definitely falls in that area.
jeremysmyth 13y ago
I feel the need to point out that everyone else is talking about vim, but you're talking about vi. Could that explain some of the differences in how you remember things based on how they are?
- lutusp 13y ago
  The answer is simple: vim = vi with decorations. If vim had done away with modes that date back forty years, I would acknowledge that.

by lutusp 13y ago

seren 13y ago

Vim/GVim actually do support the mouse since a while. You can select, copy/paste, resize your split windows, etc, using the mouse. GVim even has typical menus, not so different than wordpad. However, I agree with you that for other features, like using different fonts at once, Vim is limited or feels constrained.

jbri 13y ago

I'll point out that any modern version of vim uses mice just fine. It also uses the system clipboard just fine. The reason most vim users stick with the keyboard is because using a short key combination to select and manipulate text is measurably faster than moving your hand off the keyboard, manipulating a mouse or touchscreen, and then moving it back to continue typing.

lutusp 13y ago
> I'll point out that any modern version of vim uses mice just fine. It also uses the system clipboard just fine. What you see as vim appearing to exploit a mouse and system clipboard is actually Bash and (sometimes) a command-line app (example Konsole) doing so, or equivalent utilities outside vim in a non-GUI level. Those features work with any editor in exactly the same way. As to using the system clipboard just fine, you can copy text from vim or any other displayed source of text, but you cannot paste it, because it's not vim that's acting, or is in any way aware that text has been copied. > ... because using a short key combination to select and manipulate text is measurably faster than moving your hand off the keyboard, manipulating a mouse or touchscreen, and then moving it back to continue typing. Right -- the mouse was foisted on a gullible public willing to suffer a reduction in efficiency in order to have an electronic pet, all against their better interests. And the industry's usually diligent efficiency experts were all bribed to overlook the reduction in efficiency you've just brought to our attention.
- MetaCosm 13y ago
  ... Vim (and plugins) can respond to mouse actions (for example, to open a file tree in NERDTree or Tagbar), so your mouse stuff is pure misinformation. This includes console vim or gui vim. As for integrating with the system clipboard, that clipboard lives somewhere (X11, OS-X, Windows System), it isn't magic, and vim can integrate with it in various ways dependent on the OS. On windows for example "set clipboard=unnamed" basically makes vim use the system clipboard, period. So... not sure if you are lying or misinformed.
- Oletros 13y ago
  > Right -- the mouse was foisted on a gullible public willing to suffer a reduction in efficiency in order to have an electronic pet, all against their better interests. And the industry's usually diligent efficiency experts were all bribed to overlook the reduction in efficiency you've just brought to our attention. I'm not sure if you're just joking or you're just misinformed. For text editing, mouse is more inefficient than keystrokes
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > For text editing, mouse is more inefficient than keystrokes Your evidence for that is provided by the fact that the world eagerly adopted the mouse and abandoned vi/vim and similar programs, based solely on the advantages of modern methods. Your evidence for that is provided by the fact that I wrote an incremental improvement over vi, one that exploited the existence of control keys but didn't exploit a nonexistent mouse, and, even though it represented no great improvement, I retired on the proceeds at the age of 35. (My program was appropriately eclipsed by better, more advanced programs, that among other things did exploit the mouse.) > I'm not sure if you're just joking or you're just misinformed. Wake up and smell the Cappuccino. You are not living in reality.
    - jbri 13y ago
      There is indeed a massive advantage of a mouse over a keyboard-based interface - it's far, far more discoverable for novice or occasional users. In fact, I'd venture to say the mouse (and the corresponding advent of discoverable graphical interfaces) was the primary driver of making computers accessible to non-techies and hence largely responsible for the computing revolution. But, a keyboard-based interface is still more efficient for someone who can put in the time to learning how to use it efficiently (and customizing it to their specific work), and uses it regularly enough to maintain that knowledge. For a lot of people who write code for a living, a text editor definitely falls in that area.

jeremysmyth 13y ago

I feel the need to point out that everyone else is talking about vim, but you're talking about vi. Could that explain some of the differences in how you remember things based on how they are?

lutusp 13y ago
The answer is simple: vim = vi with decorations. If vim had done away with modes that date back forty years, I would acknowledge that.