4 ms·

> * To perform multiple operations, like moving the cursor around, entering text, deleting text, searching the document, saving and loading files, requires you

by seren 13y ago

> * To perform multiple operations, like moving the cursor around, entering text, deleting text, searching the document, saving and loading files, requires you to switch modes. Just like vi. All these operations, except entering text, are available from "normal" mode which is the default mode. This is factually incorrect that you need to switch mode to delete something, or save a file.

jbri 13y ago
To me, it sounds like he's made the classic "vim newbie" mistake of thinking of insert mode as the default, and then switching to normal mode to do anything other than edit text. It's easy to see how that would cause a painful experience.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > To me, it sounds like he's made the classic "vim newbie" ... Based on simple probability, the chance is better than 50% that I was using vi before you were born.
  - pestaa 13y ago
    Nice ad hominem. Using vi before any of us was born does not mean you avoided the classic "vim newbie" mistake.
    - lutusp 13y ago
      > Nice ad hominem. How is calling you young, saying you have your entire life in front of you, an ad hominem? Except possibly to suggest that you have a quota of mistakes you need to go through before you become more efficient at avoiding them?
      - heurist 13y ago
        >saying you have your entire life in front of you That's not what you said... you said he was too young to know vi/vim better than you. If you haven't used it in 30 years how would you know vim any better than a younger person? Why would age have anything to do with recognizing the benefits and drawbacks of various text editors? My grandparents barely knew how to turn on a computer... they wouldn't try to teach me that notepad is a better text editor than vim. I'm not discounting your experience (you definitely have more than most people here) but your arguments here could be better.
        lutusp 13y ago
        > ... you said he was too young to know vi/vim better than you. At this point you have two choices. You can locate where I said that and quote my words directly, or you cam post your apology for making a false claim in this public forum. To cut to the chase, I never said what you claim, your claim is false. Ah -- I just figured out why you can't quote my words directly, to discover that I never said what you claim. You're using vim to compose your reply, and vim is so damned inefficient that the task of accurate reporting is consequently entirely beyond your energy or patience. > If you haven't used it in 30 years how would you know vim any better than a younger person? False premise, false conclusion. Locate where I said I had never used vi/vim for 30 years. > Why would age have anything to do with recognizing the benefits and drawbacks of various text editors? I never made that claim, so I don't have to defend it. Since you have obviously lost track of the thread, the OP used words to the effect that I might be suffering from a neophyte syndrome (not his words). I replied by pointing out that I am hardly a beginner, that in fact I was probably using these editors before he was born. Perfectly apt reply, one having only to do with experience, not age. > ... your arguments here could be better. A non sequitur. Ellen Page could also be better looking, even though that's a bit hard to imagine: http://www.hdwallpapers.in/walls/ellen_page-wide.jpg http://www.hdwallpapers.in/walls/ellen_page-wide.jpg Summary. You need to post real quotes of real words, things people really said. Obviously if you're handicapped by using vi/vim to compose your replies, such trivial actions as copy and paste are -- well, by no means trivial -- so the content of your posts becomes more understandable.
        heurist 13y ago
    - michaelmior 13y ago
      I don't believe he's suggesting that he avoided newbie mistakes, simply that he's already gotten past that stage.
lutusp 13y ago
> This is factually incorrect ... If you, like most people, spend most of your time entering text, then it is factually correct that you must exit the text-entry mode to do anything else. And do you know why this arrangement exists? Because there were teletype terminals and early glass terminals that didn't have control keys. No control keys, no way to exploit their existence. SO there had to be a magic character to switch from text entry to control mode. And the magic character was an ordinary character, sometimes used for text entry, sometimes interpreted as a command prefix. Keyboards have changed, but vi hasn't. Computers have mice and touch-sensitive displays, but vi can't exploit them. Operating systems have clipboards, but vi can't take advantage of that convention. You know -- don't get me started.
- seren 13y ago
  Vim/GVim actually do support the mouse since a while. You can select, copy/paste, resize your split windows, etc, using the mouse. GVim even has typical menus, not so different than wordpad. However, I agree with you that for other features, like using different fonts at once, Vim is limited or feels constrained.
- jbri 13y ago
  I'll point out that any modern version of vim uses mice just fine. It also uses the system clipboard just fine. The reason most vim users stick with the keyboard is because using a short key combination to select and manipulate text is measurably faster than moving your hand off the keyboard, manipulating a mouse or touchscreen, and then moving it back to continue typing.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > I'll point out that any modern version of vim uses mice just fine. It also uses the system clipboard just fine. What you see as vim appearing to exploit a mouse and system clipboard is actually Bash and (sometimes) a command-line app (example Konsole) doing so, or equivalent utilities outside vim in a non-GUI level. Those features work with any editor in exactly the same way. As to using the system clipboard just fine, you can copy text from vim or any other displayed source of text, but you cannot paste it, because it's not vim that's acting, or is in any way aware that text has been copied. > ... because using a short key combination to select and manipulate text is measurably faster than moving your hand off the keyboard, manipulating a mouse or touchscreen, and then moving it back to continue typing. Right -- the mouse was foisted on a gullible public willing to suffer a reduction in efficiency in order to have an electronic pet, all against their better interests. And the industry's usually diligent efficiency experts were all bribed to overlook the reduction in efficiency you've just brought to our attention.
lutusp 13y ago
> All these operations, except entering text, are available from "normal" mode which is the default mode. Assertion: vim has modes. > This is factually incorrect that you need to switch mode to delete something, or save a file. Assertion: vim doesn't have modes. Only one of the above claims can be true. Choose which one you want to defend, and delete the other. But don't try to delete it with vim, or we'll be here all day. In point of fact, if I am entering text, I cannot move the cursor, search for text, save a file, load a file, or a dozen other things, without first switching modes. I feel like I'm discussing whether there was a literal garden of Eden with a religious True Believer. True Believers famously make claims they haven't bothered to compare to reality before speaking.
- Oletros 13y ago
  > Only one of the above claims can be true. Really? > Assertion: vim doesn't have modes. No,it is not an assertion that vim doesn't have modes, it is an assertion that you don't have to change mode to do some things >I feel like I'm discussing whether there was a literal garden of Eden with a religious True Believer. True Believers famously make claims they haven't bothered to compare to reality before speaking. Guess who is this True Believer

by seren 13y ago

jbri 13y ago

To me, it sounds like he's made the classic "vim newbie" mistake of thinking of insert mode as the default, and then switching to normal mode to do anything other than edit text. It's easy to see how that would cause a painful experience.

lutusp 13y ago
> To me, it sounds like he's made the classic "vim newbie" ... Based on simple probability, the chance is better than 50% that I was using vi before you were born.
- pestaa 13y ago
  Nice ad hominem. Using vi before any of us was born does not mean you avoided the classic "vim newbie" mistake.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > Nice ad hominem. How is calling you young, saying you have your entire life in front of you, an ad hominem? Except possibly to suggest that you have a quota of mistakes you need to go through before you become more efficient at avoiding them?
    - heurist 13y ago
      >saying you have your entire life in front of you That's not what you said... you said he was too young to know vi/vim better than you. If you haven't used it in 30 years how would you know vim any better than a younger person? Why would age have anything to do with recognizing the benefits and drawbacks of various text editors? My grandparents barely knew how to turn on a computer... they wouldn't try to teach me that notepad is a better text editor than vim. I'm not discounting your experience (you definitely have more than most people here) but your arguments here could be better.
      - lutusp 13y ago
        > ... you said he was too young to know vi/vim better than you. At this point you have two choices. You can locate where I said that and quote my words directly, or you cam post your apology for making a false claim in this public forum. To cut to the chase, I never said what you claim, your claim is false. Ah -- I just figured out why you can't quote my words directly, to discover that I never said what you claim. You're using vim to compose your reply, and vim is so damned inefficient that the task of accurate reporting is consequently entirely beyond your energy or patience. > If you haven't used it in 30 years how would you know vim any better than a younger person? False premise, false conclusion. Locate where I said I had never used vi/vim for 30 years. > Why would age have anything to do with recognizing the benefits and drawbacks of various text editors? I never made that claim, so I don't have to defend it. Since you have obviously lost track of the thread, the OP used words to the effect that I might be suffering from a neophyte syndrome (not his words). I replied by pointing out that I am hardly a beginner, that in fact I was probably using these editors before he was born. Perfectly apt reply, one having only to do with experience, not age. > ... your arguments here could be better. A non sequitur. Ellen Page could also be better looking, even though that's a bit hard to imagine: http://www.hdwallpapers.in/walls/ellen_page-wide.jpg http://www.hdwallpapers.in/walls/ellen_page-wide.jpg Summary. You need to post real quotes of real words, things people really said. Obviously if you're handicapped by using vi/vim to compose your replies, such trivial actions as copy and paste are -- well, by no means trivial -- so the content of your posts becomes more understandable.
        heurist 13y ago
  - michaelmior 13y ago
    I don't believe he's suggesting that he avoided newbie mistakes, simply that he's already gotten past that stage.

lutusp 13y ago

> This is factually incorrect ... If you, like most people, spend most of your time entering text, then it is factually correct that you must exit the text-entry mode to do anything else. And do you know why this arrangement exists? Because there were teletype terminals and early glass terminals that didn't have control keys. No control keys, no way to exploit their existence. SO there had to be a magic character to switch from text entry to control mode. And the magic character was an ordinary character, sometimes used for text entry, sometimes interpreted as a command prefix. Keyboards have changed, but vi hasn't. Computers have mice and touch-sensitive displays, but vi can't exploit them. Operating systems have clipboards, but vi can't take advantage of that convention. You know -- don't get me started.

seren 13y ago
Vim/GVim actually do support the mouse since a while. You can select, copy/paste, resize your split windows, etc, using the mouse. GVim even has typical menus, not so different than wordpad. However, I agree with you that for other features, like using different fonts at once, Vim is limited or feels constrained.
jbri 13y ago
I'll point out that any modern version of vim uses mice just fine. It also uses the system clipboard just fine. The reason most vim users stick with the keyboard is because using a short key combination to select and manipulate text is measurably faster than moving your hand off the keyboard, manipulating a mouse or touchscreen, and then moving it back to continue typing.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > I'll point out that any modern version of vim uses mice just fine. It also uses the system clipboard just fine. What you see as vim appearing to exploit a mouse and system clipboard is actually Bash and (sometimes) a command-line app (example Konsole) doing so, or equivalent utilities outside vim in a non-GUI level. Those features work with any editor in exactly the same way. As to using the system clipboard just fine, you can copy text from vim or any other displayed source of text, but you cannot paste it, because it's not vim that's acting, or is in any way aware that text has been copied. > ... because using a short key combination to select and manipulate text is measurably faster than moving your hand off the keyboard, manipulating a mouse or touchscreen, and then moving it back to continue typing. Right -- the mouse was foisted on a gullible public willing to suffer a reduction in efficiency in order to have an electronic pet, all against their better interests. And the industry's usually diligent efficiency experts were all bribed to overlook the reduction in efficiency you've just brought to our attention.

lutusp 13y ago

> All these operations, except entering text, are available from "normal" mode which is the default mode. Assertion: vim has modes. > This is factually incorrect that you need to switch mode to delete something, or save a file. Assertion: vim doesn't have modes. Only one of the above claims can be true. Choose which one you want to defend, and delete the other. But don't try to delete it with vim, or we'll be here all day. In point of fact, if I am entering text, I cannot move the cursor, search for text, save a file, load a file, or a dozen other things, without first switching modes. I feel like I'm discussing whether there was a literal garden of Eden with a religious True Believer. True Believers famously make claims they haven't bothered to compare to reality before speaking.

Oletros 13y ago
> Only one of the above claims can be true. Really? > Assertion: vim doesn't have modes. No,it is not an assertion that vim doesn't have modes, it is an assertion that you don't have to change mode to do some things >I feel like I'm discussing whether there was a literal garden of Eden with a religious True Believer. True Believers famously make claims they haven't bothered to compare to reality before speaking. Guess who is this True Believer