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Kudos on Apple Writer - but I think you're confusing easy to learn and more powerful. The modes that you complain about (and let's be honest - there are really

by aidos 13y ago

Kudos on Apple Writer - but I think you're confusing easy to learn and more powerful. The modes that you complain about (and let's be honest - there are really just 2 that you use) are what make it so powerful. You don't go into another mode to perform those operations - they're already there, and just a keystroke away. You go into another mode to insert text. By making that compromise you make the system faster and more powerful but it needs to be learnt. That's where you won - you dropped the barrier to entry.

lutusp 13y ago
> The modes that you complain about (and let's be honest - there are really just 2 that you use) ... No, to switch from entering text, to deleting text, to searching for text, to copying and pasting text, to saving a file, to loading a file, all require switching modes. Let's be honest. > By making that compromise you make the system faster and more powerful ... Having to enter additional keystrokes, a throwback to a computer keyboard that either didn't have control keys or couldn't exploit them, makes editing "faster and more powerful"? Nice reasoning.
- jamesbooker 13y ago
  No extra keystrokes required, which was your original argument, moron. Please fuck off, actually learn to use vim properly (its changed a lot from the ancient editor you used) and then come back with some arguments that are accurate and based on facts. I guarantee you will learn a few things that you can out into that crappy editor that you maintain (you know, the one that needs an ENTIRE JRE TO RUN)
- aidos 13y ago
  You'll need to provide explicit examples of where any of those operations requires more keystrokes in vim than any other editor - I can't think of any. You're calling vim commands "modes" to deliberately make it sound more complex than it is. I want to change to next 3 words. I type 'c3w' - you're saying that's modal - which it sort of vaugly is. I could have done 'v3w' to highlight the next 3 words (something you would do in any other editor). Then I hit 's' to substitute them for something else. No mode involved (other than the selection - which is the same for any editor). I stand by my assertions - it's up to you to provide the counter examples to back up your claims.
  - klibertp 13y ago
    Actually, having numerical prefixes to commands is not a feature constrained to modal editors. In something like Notepad, to replace three next words, you need to press shift+ctrl and hit right arrow three times, then just start typing. The only inefficient thing here is a repetition of left arrow, and it's solved in Emacs, where to do the same, you'd press Ctrl+3 Ctrl+<right> and then started typing (if you have delete-selection-mode enabled). So it's very similar to <esc>c3w in terms of complexity, really. On the other hand - I don't quite understand what lutusp means by "modes" - by what he writes here, I'd say that Emacs enters "command mode" after pressing (for example) C-u in exactly the same way Vim does after <esc>. Actually any editor with commands bound to key sequences can be said to be modal in the light of what he writes. And Shift+Right and then writing something is a command bound to a sequence of keystrokes, which means I'm using a modal editor right now, writing in a textarea in Chrome. I don't think that's what lutusp wanted to say, though.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > You're calling vim commands "modes" to deliberately make it sound more complex than it is. * I am moving the cursor, but I want to enter text. To do so, I need to enter colon, i, Enter, then my first text entry. * I am entering text, but I want to move the cursor. To do so, I need to type Esc, Esc, then commence moving the cursor. * If while entering text, I want to do something besides move the cursor, I need to type Esc, colon, then a command letter, then its arguments. I don't need to "make it sound more complicated than it is." It is in fact more complicated -- more complicated than Apple Writer, now justly consigned to a museum, and more complicated than any modern editor. > I type 'c3w' - you're saying that's modal - which it sort of vaugly is. This is getting comical. > I could have done 'v3w' to highlight the next 3 words (something you would do in any other editor). No, in any other modern editor, I wold pass the mouse cursor across the desired characters, thus selecting them (any subset of characters or words or paragraphs, and very, very fast). There's a reason the mouse was invented, and it wasn't because it's a cute but insubstantial gimmick meant to pander to the tastes of ignorant, unsophisticated computer users. In Android, I would swipe my finger across the desired text. No mouse needed. > I stand by my assertions ... Try moving beyond assertions -- try locating some evidence, as I have just done. Pretend to be a scientist. > it's up to you to provide the counter examples to back up your claims. As I have been doing since this thread started? Read my posts.
- klibertp 13y ago
  > No, to switch from entering text, to deleting text, to searching for text, to copying and pasting text, to saving a file, to loading a file, all require switching modes. Let's be honest. Please define a mode and define mode switching. It's obvious we use different definitions for those and so we can't have meaningful discussion.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > Please define a mode and define mode switching. If I'm entering text, I cannot move the cursor. Mode one. If I'm moving the cursor, I cannot enter text. Mode two. If I'm using a modern editor, these modes are not present -- if I want to move the cursor, I press the appropriate keyboard keys. Instead of pressing a letter key to insert a letter, I press the up-arrow key to move the editing cursor, without any preliminary mode-switching keys. This means an absolute minimum of keystrokes, and because there are no modes, the letter keys always insert letters, and the arrow keys always move the cursor. All before beginning to discuss the mouse or other pointing devices, methods that have existed since 1963 and have been in wide use since 1980. Any questions?
    - jeremysmyth 13y ago
      Yes. What editor are you talking about? The reason I ask is because in vim, I can move the cursor with my arrow keys when I'm in insert mode, and if I wanted to, I can select blocks of text with my mouse, without pressing any key to change mode. In addition to those features I can move about more efficiently without moving my hands from the keyboard, by changing mode. I touch-type, and I write for a living, so this is quite important to me, but assuming the features you mention are the most important ones to you and that you don't want to change modes, you can still do the things you say you can't. Well, I can. Not sure if you can, but I'm fairly sure it's not due to any limitation of vim. I'm curious how you appear to be mistaken in some very basic facts.
mheathr 13y ago
There are at least 6 that are explicitly used (there are more in practice but they are mostly transparent of rare and even realizing this will require reading some of the more esoteric documentation): visual line mode, insert mode, ex mode, normal mode, replace mode, visual block mode.
- lutusp 13y ago
  Thanks. I got tired of trying to use vi/vim before fully plumbing the depth of these additional modes.

by aidos 13y ago

lutusp 13y ago

> The modes that you complain about (and let's be honest - there are really just 2 that you use) ... No, to switch from entering text, to deleting text, to searching for text, to copying and pasting text, to saving a file, to loading a file, all require switching modes. Let's be honest. > By making that compromise you make the system faster and more powerful ... Having to enter additional keystrokes, a throwback to a computer keyboard that either didn't have control keys or couldn't exploit them, makes editing "faster and more powerful"? Nice reasoning.

jamesbooker 13y ago
No extra keystrokes required, which was your original argument, moron. Please fuck off, actually learn to use vim properly (its changed a lot from the ancient editor you used) and then come back with some arguments that are accurate and based on facts. I guarantee you will learn a few things that you can out into that crappy editor that you maintain (you know, the one that needs an ENTIRE JRE TO RUN)
aidos 13y ago
You'll need to provide explicit examples of where any of those operations requires more keystrokes in vim than any other editor - I can't think of any. You're calling vim commands "modes" to deliberately make it sound more complex than it is. I want to change to next 3 words. I type 'c3w' - you're saying that's modal - which it sort of vaugly is. I could have done 'v3w' to highlight the next 3 words (something you would do in any other editor). Then I hit 's' to substitute them for something else. No mode involved (other than the selection - which is the same for any editor). I stand by my assertions - it's up to you to provide the counter examples to back up your claims.
- klibertp 13y ago
  Actually, having numerical prefixes to commands is not a feature constrained to modal editors. In something like Notepad, to replace three next words, you need to press shift+ctrl and hit right arrow three times, then just start typing. The only inefficient thing here is a repetition of left arrow, and it's solved in Emacs, where to do the same, you'd press Ctrl+3 Ctrl+<right> and then started typing (if you have delete-selection-mode enabled). So it's very similar to <esc>c3w in terms of complexity, really. On the other hand - I don't quite understand what lutusp means by "modes" - by what he writes here, I'd say that Emacs enters "command mode" after pressing (for example) C-u in exactly the same way Vim does after <esc>. Actually any editor with commands bound to key sequences can be said to be modal in the light of what he writes. And Shift+Right and then writing something is a command bound to a sequence of keystrokes, which means I'm using a modal editor right now, writing in a textarea in Chrome. I don't think that's what lutusp wanted to say, though.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > You're calling vim commands "modes" to deliberately make it sound more complex than it is. * I am moving the cursor, but I want to enter text. To do so, I need to enter colon, i, Enter, then my first text entry. * I am entering text, but I want to move the cursor. To do so, I need to type Esc, Esc, then commence moving the cursor. * If while entering text, I want to do something besides move the cursor, I need to type Esc, colon, then a command letter, then its arguments. I don't need to "make it sound more complicated than it is." It is in fact more complicated -- more complicated than Apple Writer, now justly consigned to a museum, and more complicated than any modern editor. > I type 'c3w' - you're saying that's modal - which it sort of vaugly is. This is getting comical. > I could have done 'v3w' to highlight the next 3 words (something you would do in any other editor). No, in any other modern editor, I wold pass the mouse cursor across the desired characters, thus selecting them (any subset of characters or words or paragraphs, and very, very fast). There's a reason the mouse was invented, and it wasn't because it's a cute but insubstantial gimmick meant to pander to the tastes of ignorant, unsophisticated computer users. In Android, I would swipe my finger across the desired text. No mouse needed. > I stand by my assertions ... Try moving beyond assertions -- try locating some evidence, as I have just done. Pretend to be a scientist. > it's up to you to provide the counter examples to back up your claims. As I have been doing since this thread started? Read my posts.
klibertp 13y ago
> No, to switch from entering text, to deleting text, to searching for text, to copying and pasting text, to saving a file, to loading a file, all require switching modes. Let's be honest. Please define a mode and define mode switching. It's obvious we use different definitions for those and so we can't have meaningful discussion.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > Please define a mode and define mode switching. If I'm entering text, I cannot move the cursor. Mode one. If I'm moving the cursor, I cannot enter text. Mode two. If I'm using a modern editor, these modes are not present -- if I want to move the cursor, I press the appropriate keyboard keys. Instead of pressing a letter key to insert a letter, I press the up-arrow key to move the editing cursor, without any preliminary mode-switching keys. This means an absolute minimum of keystrokes, and because there are no modes, the letter keys always insert letters, and the arrow keys always move the cursor. All before beginning to discuss the mouse or other pointing devices, methods that have existed since 1963 and have been in wide use since 1980. Any questions?
  - jeremysmyth 13y ago
    Yes. What editor are you talking about? The reason I ask is because in vim, I can move the cursor with my arrow keys when I'm in insert mode, and if I wanted to, I can select blocks of text with my mouse, without pressing any key to change mode. In addition to those features I can move about more efficiently without moving my hands from the keyboard, by changing mode. I touch-type, and I write for a living, so this is quite important to me, but assuming the features you mention are the most important ones to you and that you don't want to change modes, you can still do the things you say you can't. Well, I can. Not sure if you can, but I'm fairly sure it's not due to any limitation of vim. I'm curious how you appear to be mistaken in some very basic facts.

mheathr 13y ago

There are at least 6 that are explicitly used (there are more in practice but they are mostly transparent of rare and even realizing this will require reading some of the more esoteric documentation): visual line mode, insert mode, ex mode, normal mode, replace mode, visual block mode.

lutusp 13y ago
Thanks. I got tired of trying to use vi/vim before fully plumbing the depth of these additional modes.