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Yep. To demonstrate, I present Exhibit A: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6361558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6361558 A news headline about the

Yep. To demonstrate, I present Exhibit A: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6361558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6361558 A news headline about the Apple iPhone event, completely overshadowed by NSA speculation. The first threads spans 1/2 a page to 3/4 a page and is entirely argumentative speculation with no real benefit to the discussion. I for one, just wanted some discussion about the phone moving over to 64-bit architecture. But, no, NSA speculation (read: not even new information, rehash) took over. EDIT: Also, in before -- yes, I know I can scroll down the page. But the point is that in principle, you shouldn't have to scroll down half a page just to find the meat that's actually relevant to the discussion. It's not like we're saying the NSA news is unimportant -- just don't hijack threads that are about other things with obsessive privacy speculation when there isn't any empirical evidence or information to offer. For example, Apple's fingerprint scanning TouchID could be compromised...or maybe not. We don't know. But let's not destroy entire threads speculating about it.

cheald 13y ago
It's also worth noting that that thread was overwhelmed with meta-discussion about the validity of NSA comments in that thread, not the NSA discussion itself. If you take out the comments complaining about the NSA comments, that thread would be significantly more trim.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Maybe we need another poll to tell us what the HN comment voting system already told us: that discussion about the privacy implications of a new Apple device in a discussion about said new Apple device is on-topic and valued by the community. Oh oh, for that matter, lets get some polls about polls, where is the fun in derailing meta-conversation if we only stop at one level of recursion? /s
killnine 13y ago
I disagree. The speculation you speak of contains much discussion, versus simple speculation. Since when does the tech community NOT discuss security and privacy aspects of new developments? Finally, has there EVER been a more important time to discuss/speculate on security and privacy aspects? Let me remind you that in the past months we've learned that in some format, these gov agencies have required companies (including APPLE) to provide some interface curated specifically for the agency, into the highly sensitive data said companies (again, including apple (who btw is the manufacturer of this machine changing architecture in this article)) possess. Personally, I don't care if the article is about apple changing their logo to have the bite on the left versus the right side- if I'm participating in a discussion that includes a company aiding in the complete ruin and violation of a free person's life, I'm going to bring it up.
enraged_camel 13y ago
I disagree completely. The fact that a news headline about the Apple iPhone event got overshadowed by NSA speculation should tell you something. It should tell you that the NSA is fucking everywhere now, in everyone's life, and knows - or can learn - virtually everything. This should worry you. It should worry you SO MUCH that you should be thinking about it all the time, and you should also be talking about it in every single context that is even remotely relevant to NSA's perpetual and eternal spying efforts. I don't know about you, but when the true extent of the scandal was revealed, my modus operandi changed completely, including the way I live my life and the way I communicate with people. I moved all my data overseas. I encrypted as much as I can. I stopped posting jokes on Facebook that could even remotely be construed as suspicious by an over-zealous NSA agent. At work we use Microsoft Office Communicator, and even there I am censoring myself when it comes to non-work talk with co-workers because I have no idea what kinds of backdoors could be installed on its server software. Right now when I evaluate new technology, the first and foremost question on my mind is this: can the NSA use this to spy on me? Therefore it made me very happy that the top comment in the iPhone 5S story was about the NSA. That is the way it should be.
- tptacek 13y ago
  In other words: you can't even complain about comments about the NSA infecting non-NSA threads without that thread itself becoming infected with NSA comments.
  - samstave 13y ago
    N S A C E P T I O N
    - beedogs 13y ago
      please go back to reddit with that crap.
    - aspensmonster 13y ago
      Please stay here with that crap. So we can all finally stop circlejerking about how much better we are than reddit. edit: "[dead]"? Clearly, someone is a little butthurt.
mcphilip 13y ago
Re: Exhibit A pilif has an average karma score of 7 and that post got a ton of replies and obviously a lot of upvotes. Those three factors are what led to the top spot on the comment page. If you're going to try and convince "us" not to hijack threads with baseless NSA speculation, then you've got to persuade the users with high average karma scores to not make such comments. Edit: for the record, I welcome NSA related comments on any and all posts. Very, very few of my friends are willing to discuss anything other than the details of Snowden fleeing the U.S -- it'd be sad to see the 'ignore it until it goes away' mindset also happen here on HN. I'm willing to trade an inane iPhone incremental vs revolutionary argument for speculation of potential NSA abuse of a phone feature any day, and I'm willing to bet a large amount of other HN users do too.
bhauer 13y ago
While I sympathize with those who find it disconcerting that the iPhone 5S news was hijacked by conversations about the NSA, I personally agree with those in this thread who have pointed out that the severity of the NSA situation is, at least until something fairly substantial changes, great enough that it can trump nearly anything. Given how the NSA has turned the table on conspiracy theories--proven many wild theories actually or plausibly true--those of us who would like to cast conspiracies with a healthy dose of doubt need to keep an open mind to even those theories that strike us as outlandish. I am personally strongly opposed to flagging submissions. I have written elsewhere [1] that I find flagging a measure of last resort. It bothers me that so many people flag submissions as if it were equivalent to a downvote. It's not. However, with all of that in mind, some NSA threads cause my brain fatigue. They generally make me sad about the deeply immoral state of the US government and the undermining and impotence of technology. I can only take so much NSA-caused despair. I don't have a short attention span, but honestly, fully comprehending how much we have been hurt by the NSA is a deep emotional burden. Sometimes I need a break. So for those times when you too need a break and want to just think about technology, I'd recommend installing a collapsible comment user script [2] to allow you to just hide the NSA sub-threads until you're in the mood to dig into that fray. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6293034 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6293034 [2] http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/138037 http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/138037
rdtsc 13y ago
Fuck Apple and iPhone. I don't care about it and I don't want to read about it. Apparently most people on HN agree. Now you can kick and scream or read other site. It is just how it is. > and is entirely argumentative speculation with no real benefit to the discussion. Like a chat by the water-cooler you mean. I would love more Snowdens and leaked documents to come out. Unfortunately there aren't at the moment, so we are left discussing what is there. Talking about the future, the implication to US businesses, implication to what it means for this country, the Constitution, privacy, and so on. I understand that is not interesting for most people, especially non-Americans. Well c'est la vie, a good majority of HNers are Americans. The rage and indignation about this is quite strong (and it should be so). These revelations, have shattered the perceptions many have been brought up and believed in for most part of their lives. It is hard to deal with that so well you get lots of discussion. You have the downvote button, click it if you don't like the topic. But stomping your feet about hoping maybe moderators will notice and will start pushing Apple related stories higher might not work.
mixmastamyk 13y ago
You don't mention the fingerprint-reader. Why not?
tripzilch 13y ago
> A news headline about the Apple iPhone event, completely overshadowed by NSA speculation. Discussion on articles of one topic being completely overshadowed by tangential other topics is a problem with the way HN's commenting system works (Reddit does this much better, folding certain comments away, based on votes and nesting level), not at all specific to the NSA discussions. It happens for every topic on HN that receives a lot of mindshare over a longer period of time. It annoys me there too. Thankfully I have a bookmarklet that allows me to collapse threads on HN :)

cheald 13y ago

It's also worth noting that that thread was overwhelmed with meta-discussion about the validity of NSA comments in that thread, not the NSA discussion itself. If you take out the comments complaining about the NSA comments, that thread would be significantly more trim.

jlgreco 13y ago
Maybe we need another poll to tell us what the HN comment voting system already told us: that discussion about the privacy implications of a new Apple device in a discussion about said new Apple device is on-topic and valued by the community. Oh oh, for that matter, lets get some polls about polls, where is the fun in derailing meta-conversation if we only stop at one level of recursion? /s

killnine 13y ago

I disagree. The speculation you speak of contains much discussion, versus simple speculation. Since when does the tech community NOT discuss security and privacy aspects of new developments? Finally, has there EVER been a more important time to discuss/speculate on security and privacy aspects? Let me remind you that in the past months we've learned that in some format, these gov agencies have required companies (including APPLE) to provide some interface curated specifically for the agency, into the highly sensitive data said companies (again, including apple (who btw is the manufacturer of this machine changing architecture in this article)) possess. Personally, I don't care if the article is about apple changing their logo to have the bite on the left versus the right side- if I'm participating in a discussion that includes a company aiding in the complete ruin and violation of a free person's life, I'm going to bring it up.

enraged_camel 13y ago

I disagree completely. The fact that a news headline about the Apple iPhone event got overshadowed by NSA speculation should tell you something. It should tell you that the NSA is fucking everywhere now, in everyone's life, and knows - or can learn - virtually everything. This should worry you. It should worry you SO MUCH that you should be thinking about it all the time, and you should also be talking about it in every single context that is even remotely relevant to NSA's perpetual and eternal spying efforts. I don't know about you, but when the true extent of the scandal was revealed, my modus operandi changed completely, including the way I live my life and the way I communicate with people. I moved all my data overseas. I encrypted as much as I can. I stopped posting jokes on Facebook that could even remotely be construed as suspicious by an over-zealous NSA agent. At work we use Microsoft Office Communicator, and even there I am censoring myself when it comes to non-work talk with co-workers because I have no idea what kinds of backdoors could be installed on its server software. Right now when I evaluate new technology, the first and foremost question on my mind is this: can the NSA use this to spy on me? Therefore it made me very happy that the top comment in the iPhone 5S story was about the NSA. That is the way it should be.

tptacek 13y ago
In other words: you can't even complain about comments about the NSA infecting non-NSA threads without that thread itself becoming infected with NSA comments.
- samstave 13y ago
  N S A C E P T I O N
  - beedogs 13y ago
    please go back to reddit with that crap.
  - aspensmonster 13y ago
    Please stay here with that crap. So we can all finally stop circlejerking about how much better we are than reddit. edit: "[dead]"? Clearly, someone is a little butthurt.

mcphilip 13y ago

Re: Exhibit A pilif has an average karma score of 7 and that post got a ton of replies and obviously a lot of upvotes. Those three factors are what led to the top spot on the comment page. If you're going to try and convince "us" not to hijack threads with baseless NSA speculation, then you've got to persuade the users with high average karma scores to not make such comments. Edit: for the record, I welcome NSA related comments on any and all posts. Very, very few of my friends are willing to discuss anything other than the details of Snowden fleeing the U.S -- it'd be sad to see the 'ignore it until it goes away' mindset also happen here on HN. I'm willing to trade an inane iPhone incremental vs revolutionary argument for speculation of potential NSA abuse of a phone feature any day, and I'm willing to bet a large amount of other HN users do too.

bhauer 13y ago

While I sympathize with those who find it disconcerting that the iPhone 5S news was hijacked by conversations about the NSA, I personally agree with those in this thread who have pointed out that the severity of the NSA situation is, at least until something fairly substantial changes, great enough that it can trump nearly anything. Given how the NSA has turned the table on conspiracy theories--proven many wild theories actually or plausibly true--those of us who would like to cast conspiracies with a healthy dose of doubt need to keep an open mind to even those theories that strike us as outlandish. I am personally strongly opposed to flagging submissions. I have written elsewhere [1] that I find flagging a measure of last resort. It bothers me that so many people flag submissions as if it were equivalent to a downvote. It's not. However, with all of that in mind, some NSA threads cause my brain fatigue. They generally make me sad about the deeply immoral state of the US government and the undermining and impotence of technology. I can only take so much NSA-caused despair. I don't have a short attention span, but honestly, fully comprehending how much we have been hurt by the NSA is a deep emotional burden. Sometimes I need a break. So for those times when you too need a break and want to just think about technology, I'd recommend installing a collapsible comment user script [2] to allow you to just hide the NSA sub-threads until you're in the mood to dig into that fray. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6293034 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6293034 [2] http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/138037 http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/138037

rdtsc 13y ago

Fuck Apple and iPhone. I don't care about it and I don't want to read about it. Apparently most people on HN agree. Now you can kick and scream or read other site. It is just how it is. > and is entirely argumentative speculation with no real benefit to the discussion. Like a chat by the water-cooler you mean. I would love more Snowdens and leaked documents to come out. Unfortunately there aren't at the moment, so we are left discussing what is there. Talking about the future, the implication to US businesses, implication to what it means for this country, the Constitution, privacy, and so on. I understand that is not interesting for most people, especially non-Americans. Well c'est la vie, a good majority of HNers are Americans. The rage and indignation about this is quite strong (and it should be so). These revelations, have shattered the perceptions many have been brought up and believed in for most part of their lives. It is hard to deal with that so well you get lots of discussion. You have the downvote button, click it if you don't like the topic. But stomping your feet about hoping maybe moderators will notice and will start pushing Apple related stories higher might not work.

mixmastamyk 13y ago

You don't mention the fingerprint-reader. Why not?

tripzilch 13y ago

> A news headline about the Apple iPhone event, completely overshadowed by NSA speculation. Discussion on articles of one topic being completely overshadowed by tangential other topics is a problem with the way HN's commenting system works (Reddit does this much better, folding certain comments away, based on votes and nesting level), not at all specific to the NSA discussions. It happens for every topic on HN that receives a lot of mindshare over a longer period of time. It annoys me there too. Thankfully I have a bookmarklet that allows me to collapse threads on HN :)