4 ms·

I would say that you are willfully, self-consciously out of touch. This may not affect you on a day-to-day basis, but it will make you completely unqualified to

I would say that you are willfully, self-consciously out of touch. This may not affect you on a day-to-day basis, but it will make you completely unqualified to make certain decisions for anybody else. Your designs will not be usable by the majority of the population. This might be okay if you're not targeting the general population, but there's a danger of forgetting just how out of touch you are. There's a danger that, like RMS and PG, you may create a website that is visually abominable, and convince yourself that it doesn't hamper the flow of information.

jlgreco 13y ago
I don't think that I am out of touch; what precisely do you think that I might be unaware of? What sort of designing ability do you think I am missing out on? Before you answer, I will make this clear again: RMS does not expect anybody to follow the example of his personal computing habits. Neither do I. When I make recommendations to others, I make those recommendations with what I know of that person and what they will like, not with what I like. I know perfectly well that my preferences are eccentric, but this eccentricity is not the product of any sort of ignorance and I assert it does not induce any sort of ignorance. (Just to real quick head you off because I sense where you are going with the PG reference: HN is actually one site that works poorly in elinks, due to how it nests comments. It is best used in a modern browser, and for it I use a modern browser)
- gfodor 13y ago
  The point is you assert that it does not induce any sort of ignorance. If you are talking about the kind of ignorance other are talking about, how can you assert this? It's false by definition: you are ignorant of the modern experience of using the web because you have literally opted out of that exact experience.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    "you are ignorant of the modern experience of using the web because you have literally opted out of that exact experience." I am not, and I haven't. I often do use modern browsers, such as with HN (and other sites that require it), as I have already mentioned. My frequent use of elinks does not somehow make me unfamiliar with modern browsers in any way. Elinks does not induce brain damage. If you want to talk about mail clients, where I use a terminal based client as my primary client, rather than just a frequent client, there might be more substance there. However I certainly do not consider myself unfamiliar with GUI desktop clients (particularly outlook) or web clients (particularly gmail), or GUI phone clients (particularly gmail, again). I know how to use those, just as I am sure many regular outlook users know how to use gmail and how many gmail users know how to use mutt. My personal choice, while an unusual and eccentric choice, does not render me particularly incapable of being aware and familiar with other choices. Furthermore, I consider myself perfectly capable of offering others advice. If my mother asked me what client to use, I would tell her to stick with the gmail web app and phone app. If a coworker asked me what they should use, I would recommend that they continue to use Outlook, unless I knew they were receptive to and interested in using mutt. I really don't see how using mutt could be impeding my ability to make sound mail client recommendations. Using mutt to compose and read email does not make me out of touch and ignorant of Outlook anymore than using Windows Phone 8 makes somebody out of touch and ignorant of iOS. Shoot, another example with some actual evidence: I use a Chromebook with Debian on it. I enjoy this setup immensely, but if you search through my comment history you will see that I am very critical of it when talking about it with others. This is because, despite my eccentric setup, I am not out of touch with how most users use their computers, and with what most users expect from their computers. I understand that the setup I enjoy is not for everybody. In fact, rather few people would find it acceptable.
    - gfodor 13y ago
      Uh, what you are talking about here is not the same thing as RMS's behavior.
      - mattl 13y ago
        RMS is basically offline most of the time and gets a crap ton of email -- from the general public, from the GNU project and from his colleages at the FSF. He spends most of his waking time running GNU, the FSF and answering people who have questions about free software. When he's not doing that, he's giving talks or getting a little bit of sleep. He spends a lot of time on a plane. Other than working through mail in batches, including offline copies of webpages, would you suggest he get this same amount of work done in the time he has?
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        I am making the point that just because RMS does not use modern browsers does not mean that is is unfamiliar with them.
- sirmarksalot 13y ago
  The PG jab was actually at his personal site. Every time somebody links to one of his essays, I look at the layout and go "who is this clown?" And then I realize who it is and I shut up. His design sense is legendarily bad.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    His design is poor, but it does nit logically follow that his design is the product of ignorance of modern browsers. The much more likely hypothesis is that he simply is not good at design, or he has unconventional tastes in design and doesn't care that some people don't like it (and perhaps even considered it a shit filter...), or that he simply doesn't give a shit at all...

jlgreco 13y ago

I don't think that I am out of touch; what precisely do you think that I might be unaware of? What sort of designing ability do you think I am missing out on? Before you answer, I will make this clear again: RMS does not expect anybody to follow the example of his personal computing habits. Neither do I. When I make recommendations to others, I make those recommendations with what I know of that person and what they will like, not with what I like. I know perfectly well that my preferences are eccentric, but this eccentricity is not the product of any sort of ignorance and I assert it does not induce any sort of ignorance. (Just to real quick head you off because I sense where you are going with the PG reference: HN is actually one site that works poorly in elinks, due to how it nests comments. It is best used in a modern browser, and for it I use a modern browser)

gfodor 13y ago
The point is you assert that it does not induce any sort of ignorance. If you are talking about the kind of ignorance other are talking about, how can you assert this? It's false by definition: you are ignorant of the modern experience of using the web because you have literally opted out of that exact experience.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  "you are ignorant of the modern experience of using the web because you have literally opted out of that exact experience." I am not, and I haven't. I often do use modern browsers, such as with HN (and other sites that require it), as I have already mentioned. My frequent use of elinks does not somehow make me unfamiliar with modern browsers in any way. Elinks does not induce brain damage. If you want to talk about mail clients, where I use a terminal based client as my primary client, rather than just a frequent client, there might be more substance there. However I certainly do not consider myself unfamiliar with GUI desktop clients (particularly outlook) or web clients (particularly gmail), or GUI phone clients (particularly gmail, again). I know how to use those, just as I am sure many regular outlook users know how to use gmail and how many gmail users know how to use mutt. My personal choice, while an unusual and eccentric choice, does not render me particularly incapable of being aware and familiar with other choices. Furthermore, I consider myself perfectly capable of offering others advice. If my mother asked me what client to use, I would tell her to stick with the gmail web app and phone app. If a coworker asked me what they should use, I would recommend that they continue to use Outlook, unless I knew they were receptive to and interested in using mutt. I really don't see how using mutt could be impeding my ability to make sound mail client recommendations. Using mutt to compose and read email does not make me out of touch and ignorant of Outlook anymore than using Windows Phone 8 makes somebody out of touch and ignorant of iOS. Shoot, another example with some actual evidence: I use a Chromebook with Debian on it. I enjoy this setup immensely, but if you search through my comment history you will see that I am very critical of it when talking about it with others. This is because, despite my eccentric setup, I am not out of touch with how most users use their computers, and with what most users expect from their computers. I understand that the setup I enjoy is not for everybody. In fact, rather few people would find it acceptable.
  - gfodor 13y ago
    Uh, what you are talking about here is not the same thing as RMS's behavior.
    - mattl 13y ago
      RMS is basically offline most of the time and gets a crap ton of email -- from the general public, from the GNU project and from his colleages at the FSF. He spends most of his waking time running GNU, the FSF and answering people who have questions about free software. When he's not doing that, he's giving talks or getting a little bit of sleep. He spends a lot of time on a plane. Other than working through mail in batches, including offline copies of webpages, would you suggest he get this same amount of work done in the time he has?
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      I am making the point that just because RMS does not use modern browsers does not mean that is is unfamiliar with them.
sirmarksalot 13y ago
The PG jab was actually at his personal site. Every time somebody links to one of his essays, I look at the layout and go "who is this clown?" And then I realize who it is and I shut up. His design sense is legendarily bad.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  His design is poor, but it does nit logically follow that his design is the product of ignorance of modern browsers. The much more likely hypothesis is that he simply is not good at design, or he has unconventional tastes in design and doesn't care that some people don't like it (and perhaps even considered it a shit filter...), or that he simply doesn't give a shit at all...