5 ms·

I've been working in tech for 20 years. The key to getting decent gigs/clients is to avoid tournament situations (i.e. a conventional job application/interview

I've been working in tech for 20 years. The key to getting decent gigs/clients is to avoid tournament situations (i.e. a conventional job application/interview process).

jonnathanson 13y ago
Exactly. Conventional application/review processes can easily turn into "beauty contests": hiring decisions made primarily (or even solely) on the basis of who looks good on paper, who gives a good interview, or who comes across as the most likable and personable on the day of their interview. Beauty contests have spotty track records for predicting on-the-job performance, but they're often the norm.
- b3n 13y ago
  How else should one predict on-the-job performance if not the conventional application/review process?
  - Toenex 13y ago
    ...and if you solve this one be sure to write it up and let us know won't you. For what it's worth in my experience on both sides of the interview panel you've basically made an 80-90% decision on a candidate in less than 5 minutes (probably less than 1 in most cases). Everything that follows is gathering information to support that decision and maybe, just maybe push on that 10-20%.
  - VLM 13y ago
    Ex coworkers. Last time I got a job traditionally and walked in cold to a job where I didn't know anyone there was in 1994 or 1995 don't remember exactly. Ever since then its all been "Yeah (fill in the blank) who worked with you at (fill in the blank) mentioned your name and the work you did with (fill in the blank) so I figured I'd give you a call and ..." I predict I'd be freaked out to walk into a new job and not know anyone. I haven't done that in twenty years. I think I'd be lonely for awhile? I have some respect for people who do that, its gotta be very stressful. Even noobs can kind of apply this via school classmates and to a much more limited extent physical meatspace users group meetings. Locally a makerspace is slowly bootstrapping itself and once its further along, I'll join and meet some interesting people soon (the pioneers of the group only meet while I'm busy at work, so occasional mailing list interaction is possible, although not in person). One hardware job interview a long time ago involved pulling circuit boards of stuff I designed and built at home out of my suit pockets during the interview. The HR lady was stunned, and I was also stunned to hear that she was stunned. Admittedly I was bringing analog to a digital gunfight but still... they're looking for a hardware dude, and I got interviewed because I know a guy, but none of the guys you selected by yourselves personally own a soldering iron, and you're hiring for a HARDWARE guy? If HR screws up that badly, which happens often enough, if you can find any way at all to get in, you'll basically be the only candidate. There are probably ways for HR to do this with software, maybe HR ends up only providing java candidates but they actually need a Ruby guy and you're a Ruby guy and via an old friend you get interviewed, well, I guess you win.
    - larrydag 13y ago
      So moral is networking.
      - VLM 13y ago
        The definition of networking is nebulous. Linkedin spam isn't going to do it. A salesguy where I work now, was a salesguy at our mutual previous employer, and I made his customer happy, which made his commission check happy, which makes him remember me favorably, which is how he ended up a reference on my custom resume for my current employer. Doesn't mean we're personally networked or linked or even rise to the level of acquaintance, but I do have at least some kind of reputation. I had a lot of people on the inside like that for my current job. In a way, this makes it easier to get a job at a big company after you're been around awhile. At a tiny startup, its statistically likely no one would know me... at a local 500 person office, I am certain to know at least five current employees, even if by nothing more than reputation. HR people usually know their dept policies are dumb as a group, but are individually smart enough to get excited for a "real" reference from a current employee.
    - vonmoltke 13y ago
      I can't imagine going to work somewhere I do already know people. In the first 9.5 years of my career, spent at a defense contractor, literally everyone I worked with is either still there or retired. Many have not even moved offices since my original program moved to its current location 9 years ago.
  - dhimes 13y ago
    +1 even though you forgot the </sarcasm> tag.
AznHisoka 13y ago
I wonder if this can be applied to the dating world as well...
- k__ 13y ago
  Probably. But it's hard to find the people, who don't participate in the "Dating-Tournament".
- VLM 13y ago
  Dating coworkers / ex-coworkers? My wife and I worked together although by the time we were seriously dating we both had moved in to other jobs. Another option is the obvious getting set up blind date style. The coworker thing seems to work very well if everyone involved can keep drama out of the workplace, which is pretty easy if its actually ex- coworkers not current coworkers. The "set up by friends" thing seems to work only slightly better than "met at a bar".

I've been working in tech for 20 years. The key to getting decent gigs/clients is to avoid tournament situations (i.e. a conventional job application/interview process).

jonnathanson 13y ago

Exactly. Conventional application/review processes can easily turn into "beauty contests": hiring decisions made primarily (or even solely) on the basis of who looks good on paper, who gives a good interview, or who comes across as the most likable and personable on the day of their interview. Beauty contests have spotty track records for predicting on-the-job performance, but they're often the norm.

b3n 13y ago
How else should one predict on-the-job performance if not the conventional application/review process?
- Toenex 13y ago
  ...and if you solve this one be sure to write it up and let us know won't you. For what it's worth in my experience on both sides of the interview panel you've basically made an 80-90% decision on a candidate in less than 5 minutes (probably less than 1 in most cases). Everything that follows is gathering information to support that decision and maybe, just maybe push on that 10-20%.
- VLM 13y ago
  Ex coworkers. Last time I got a job traditionally and walked in cold to a job where I didn't know anyone there was in 1994 or 1995 don't remember exactly. Ever since then its all been "Yeah (fill in the blank) who worked with you at (fill in the blank) mentioned your name and the work you did with (fill in the blank) so I figured I'd give you a call and ..." I predict I'd be freaked out to walk into a new job and not know anyone. I haven't done that in twenty years. I think I'd be lonely for awhile? I have some respect for people who do that, its gotta be very stressful. Even noobs can kind of apply this via school classmates and to a much more limited extent physical meatspace users group meetings. Locally a makerspace is slowly bootstrapping itself and once its further along, I'll join and meet some interesting people soon (the pioneers of the group only meet while I'm busy at work, so occasional mailing list interaction is possible, although not in person). One hardware job interview a long time ago involved pulling circuit boards of stuff I designed and built at home out of my suit pockets during the interview. The HR lady was stunned, and I was also stunned to hear that she was stunned. Admittedly I was bringing analog to a digital gunfight but still... they're looking for a hardware dude, and I got interviewed because I know a guy, but none of the guys you selected by yourselves personally own a soldering iron, and you're hiring for a HARDWARE guy? If HR screws up that badly, which happens often enough, if you can find any way at all to get in, you'll basically be the only candidate. There are probably ways for HR to do this with software, maybe HR ends up only providing java candidates but they actually need a Ruby guy and you're a Ruby guy and via an old friend you get interviewed, well, I guess you win.
  - larrydag 13y ago
    So moral is networking.
    - VLM 13y ago
      The definition of networking is nebulous. Linkedin spam isn't going to do it. A salesguy where I work now, was a salesguy at our mutual previous employer, and I made his customer happy, which made his commission check happy, which makes him remember me favorably, which is how he ended up a reference on my custom resume for my current employer. Doesn't mean we're personally networked or linked or even rise to the level of acquaintance, but I do have at least some kind of reputation. I had a lot of people on the inside like that for my current job. In a way, this makes it easier to get a job at a big company after you're been around awhile. At a tiny startup, its statistically likely no one would know me... at a local 500 person office, I am certain to know at least five current employees, even if by nothing more than reputation. HR people usually know their dept policies are dumb as a group, but are individually smart enough to get excited for a "real" reference from a current employee.
  - vonmoltke 13y ago
    I can't imagine going to work somewhere I do already know people. In the first 9.5 years of my career, spent at a defense contractor, literally everyone I worked with is either still there or retired. Many have not even moved offices since my original program moved to its current location 9 years ago.
- dhimes 13y ago
  +1 even though you forgot the </sarcasm> tag.

AznHisoka 13y ago

I wonder if this can be applied to the dating world as well...

k__ 13y ago
Probably. But it's hard to find the people, who don't participate in the "Dating-Tournament".
VLM 13y ago
Dating coworkers / ex-coworkers? My wife and I worked together although by the time we were seriously dating we both had moved in to other jobs. Another option is the obvious getting set up blind date style. The coworker thing seems to work very well if everyone involved can keep drama out of the workplace, which is pretty easy if its actually ex- coworkers not current coworkers. The "set up by friends" thing seems to work only slightly better than "met at a bar".