6 ms·

What alternative do we really have? Android phones aren't anymore transparent. The carrier or phone manufacture can add whatever they like to android. Even if

What alternative do we really have? Android phones aren't anymore transparent. The carrier or phone manufacture can add whatever they like to android. Even if you flash your own os, you still aren't going to know if any backdoors have been added.

spindritf 13y ago
> Even if you flash your own os, you still aren't going to know if any backdoors have been added. CyanogenMod for example is open source. There might still be bugs, whether intentional or not, and you rely on the same hardware but I'd say that it's a definite improvement.
- cheald 13y ago
  CM still relies on proprietary, opaque binary blobs for hardware support. Nobody in open source can say for sure that they're secure.
  - TheLegace 13y ago
    Also isn't it a fork of AOSP, so it's not like they went through the source code, I mean they don't have as much resources so how could they?
benologist 13y ago
FSF offers multiple alternatives to which you could add Firefox OS and Ubuntu, although you would have to trust the hardware is not betraying you.
- kilroy123 13y ago
  With the FF OS phones, I wouldn't trust the phone manufacture not tampering with the OS, or like you said, the hardware.
  - mwcampbell 13y ago
    I wonder how the GeeksPhone Peak+ fares in this context. I pre-ordered one a few weeks ago.
- doublec 13y ago
  Replicant attempts to remove proprietary binary components (http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/HTCDreamHTCMagicProprietary http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/HTCDream...) whereas Firefox OS does not.
  - rimantas 13y ago
    And when do they start to build cell towers?
w1ntermute 13y ago
> Android phones aren't anymore transparent. The carrier or phone manufacture can add whatever they like to android. Correction: most Android phones aren't transparent. But you can get a Google Experience phone (HTC One or Galaxy S4) or a Nexus device (4, 7, 10) and install a 3rd party ROM free of any closed-source software. This is also often possible with other, non-GE/Nexus phones. Hardware backdoors are a separate issue.
- avar 13y ago
  > [...]and install a 3rd party ROM free > of any closed-source software. No you can't. I'm not aware of any commercial Android phone that doesn't need binary firmware blobs running in kernel space to work, e.g. for display drivers, WiFi, the radio stack etc. > Hardware backdoors are a separate issue. You don't need a hardware backdoor when you can just put a backdoor in the binary blob your users run along with some open source software they download along with it.
  - phaer 13y ago
    plus: There's software on your baseband processor (and afaik on your simcard) which you can't control.
  - Brakenshire 13y ago
    > No you can't. I'm not aware of any commercial Android phone that doesn't need binary firmware blobs running in kernel space to work, i.e. for display drivers, WiFi, the radio stack etc. Using an open source operating system is a step towards a fully transparent phone, even if it doesn't solve all the problems at once. It opens a market space for a company to release a phone with open-source drivers. Consumers need to force companies step-by-step towards the solutions we want, not just expect them to be delivered in a gift-wrapped package.
    - kamjam 13y ago
      So do we believe the new Firefox OS will be the way forward, as a good alternative open source OS? I haven't looked into it much yet, and the hardware of the ZTE is severely underpowered at the moment for my needs, but if this is truly open then I can see myself getting on board, even flashing an Android device with it (if the hardware allows). Didn't know about F-Droid, that's the kind of marketplace I think that is the best of both worlds, open source but verified by community members.
tbirdz 13y ago
The announcement recommended Replicant and FDroid. Perhaps in the future a Firefox OS or Ubuntu phone could be the basis for a free phone OS? Of course, rms himself doesn't even use any cell phone at all, so if you are as concerned as he is, you may be out of luck.
- gfodor 13y ago
  The fact that rms does not use a cell phone in 2013 is telling.
  - mni3 13y ago
    rms emails a program which returns webpages via email, rather than visiting websites directly. He's completely out of touch with how modern computers or smartphones are used.
    - beedogs 13y ago
      Perhaps he's completely in touch.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      He has absolutely no expectation that people will follow his example in those cases. I read my email in a terminal, and often browse the web from one too. Hell, I also code in terminals! I am sure plenty of people, probably even most people, consider all of those nutty. Am I out of touch?
      - sirmarksalot 13y ago
        I would say that you are willfully, self-consciously out of touch. This may not affect you on a day-to-day basis, but it will make you completely unqualified to make certain decisions for anybody else. Your designs will not be usable by the majority of the population. This might be okay if you're not targeting the general population, but there's a danger of forgetting just how out of touch you are. There's a danger that, like RMS and PG, you may create a website that is visually abominable, and convince yourself that it doesn't hamper the flow of information.
AsymetricCom 13y ago
The backdoors for mobile hardware is at the hardware level. I get the feeling that Google couldn't care less what you actually run inside of the VM that it android, what matters is how it manages access to resources like bandwidth and the associated meta/data required. I'm sure there is some kind of way to profile what the VM is doing and send it out remotely, but the real security concern is using the phone itself as a platform. People already have secure computing systems, what they don't have is secure (or insecure depending on perspective) network access.

spindritf 13y ago

> Even if you flash your own os, you still aren't going to know if any backdoors have been added. CyanogenMod for example is open source. There might still be bugs, whether intentional or not, and you rely on the same hardware but I'd say that it's a definite improvement.

cheald 13y ago
CM still relies on proprietary, opaque binary blobs for hardware support. Nobody in open source can say for sure that they're secure.
- TheLegace 13y ago
  Also isn't it a fork of AOSP, so it's not like they went through the source code, I mean they don't have as much resources so how could they?

benologist 13y ago

FSF offers multiple alternatives to which you could add Firefox OS and Ubuntu, although you would have to trust the hardware is not betraying you.

kilroy123 13y ago
With the FF OS phones, I wouldn't trust the phone manufacture not tampering with the OS, or like you said, the hardware.
- mwcampbell 13y ago
  I wonder how the GeeksPhone Peak+ fares in this context. I pre-ordered one a few weeks ago.
doublec 13y ago
Replicant attempts to remove proprietary binary components (http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/HTCDreamHTCMagicProprietary http://redmine.replicant.us/projects/replicant/wiki/HTCDream...) whereas Firefox OS does not.
- rimantas 13y ago
  And when do they start to build cell towers?

w1ntermute 13y ago

> Android phones aren't anymore transparent. The carrier or phone manufacture can add whatever they like to android. Correction: most Android phones aren't transparent. But you can get a Google Experience phone (HTC One or Galaxy S4) or a Nexus device (4, 7, 10) and install a 3rd party ROM free of any closed-source software. This is also often possible with other, non-GE/Nexus phones. Hardware backdoors are a separate issue.

avar 13y ago
> [...]and install a 3rd party ROM free > of any closed-source software. No you can't. I'm not aware of any commercial Android phone that doesn't need binary firmware blobs running in kernel space to work, e.g. for display drivers, WiFi, the radio stack etc. > Hardware backdoors are a separate issue. You don't need a hardware backdoor when you can just put a backdoor in the binary blob your users run along with some open source software they download along with it.
- phaer 13y ago
  plus: There's software on your baseband processor (and afaik on your simcard) which you can't control.
- Brakenshire 13y ago
  > No you can't. I'm not aware of any commercial Android phone that doesn't need binary firmware blobs running in kernel space to work, i.e. for display drivers, WiFi, the radio stack etc. Using an open source operating system is a step towards a fully transparent phone, even if it doesn't solve all the problems at once. It opens a market space for a company to release a phone with open-source drivers. Consumers need to force companies step-by-step towards the solutions we want, not just expect them to be delivered in a gift-wrapped package.
  - kamjam 13y ago
    So do we believe the new Firefox OS will be the way forward, as a good alternative open source OS? I haven't looked into it much yet, and the hardware of the ZTE is severely underpowered at the moment for my needs, but if this is truly open then I can see myself getting on board, even flashing an Android device with it (if the hardware allows). Didn't know about F-Droid, that's the kind of marketplace I think that is the best of both worlds, open source but verified by community members.

tbirdz 13y ago

The announcement recommended Replicant and FDroid. Perhaps in the future a Firefox OS or Ubuntu phone could be the basis for a free phone OS? Of course, rms himself doesn't even use any cell phone at all, so if you are as concerned as he is, you may be out of luck.

gfodor 13y ago
The fact that rms does not use a cell phone in 2013 is telling.
- mni3 13y ago
  rms emails a program which returns webpages via email, rather than visiting websites directly. He's completely out of touch with how modern computers or smartphones are used.
  - beedogs 13y ago
    Perhaps he's completely in touch.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    He has absolutely no expectation that people will follow his example in those cases. I read my email in a terminal, and often browse the web from one too. Hell, I also code in terminals! I am sure plenty of people, probably even most people, consider all of those nutty. Am I out of touch?
    - sirmarksalot 13y ago
      I would say that you are willfully, self-consciously out of touch. This may not affect you on a day-to-day basis, but it will make you completely unqualified to make certain decisions for anybody else. Your designs will not be usable by the majority of the population. This might be okay if you're not targeting the general population, but there's a danger of forgetting just how out of touch you are. There's a danger that, like RMS and PG, you may create a website that is visually abominable, and convince yourself that it doesn't hamper the flow of information.

AsymetricCom 13y ago

The backdoors for mobile hardware is at the hardware level. I get the feeling that Google couldn't care less what you actually run inside of the VM that it android, what matters is how it manages access to resources like bandwidth and the associated meta/data required. I'm sure there is some kind of way to profile what the VM is doing and send it out remotely, but the real security concern is using the phone itself as a platform. People already have secure computing systems, what they don't have is secure (or insecure depending on perspective) network access.