4 ms·

This fingerprint sensor and its potential use for payments is rather disturbing to me. I am (rightly, I would argue) apprehensive about general purpose computer

This fingerprint sensor and its potential use for payments is rather disturbing to me. I am (rightly, I would argue) apprehensive about general purpose computers acting in a "trustworthy" manner. I hope that this fingerprint sensor, which undoubtedly will be incorporated into authentication for payment systems, doesn't usher in a future of reliance on a fundamentally untrustworthy device. I really, really worry that the banks will jump on this as a way of limiting their fraud liability. (I'm thinking about how chip and PIN has been cited as a way to move fraud liability to the consumer.) To dumb it down: I'm envisioning a crappy future where you'll end up with fraudulent charges on your credit card (via your Apple account) that you can't contest because the credit card company will say "Hey-- your fingerprint was used to authenticate this charge. Therefore you did it." I don't think that line of thinking is too cynical. No quantity of assurances from Apple about how the fingerprint reader will be "firewalled" from third-party access will convince me. If the hardware and software were opened up for third-party analysis I might be convinced, but I really don't think that's going to happen. This fingerprint reader amounts to a complex hardware and software system with a lot of moving parts. It will have exploitable bugs and will be hacked. I think it will ultimately used to defraud, too. Thinking about the mass harvest of fingerprint data from the public by an attacker (like, say, the NSA) also gives me the willies. Will it be possible for an attacker to steal fingerprint data and use it to compromise other biometric authentication systems? Will it be possible to use stolen fingerprint data to plant your fingerprints at a crime scene? How do you recover from the theft of biometric data? Are you issued a new thumb? To be clear: I hate the current system of "secret numbers" embossed on plastic cards and encoded on magnetic stripes as a way of authenticating payments. At least, though, the plastic cards aren't battery-powered general purpose computers with radios attached to them. Bad as little bits of plastic and "secret numbers" are, my credit cards themselves can't betray me. A phone (or other sufficiently complex computer system) acting as my payment token most certainly could (and will). As an aside: I don't have any RFID-chipped credit cards, nor will I. When I end up having no choice in the matter I'll microwave the cards before using them.

sjtgraham 13y ago
> I'm thinking about how chip and PIN has been cited as a way to move fraud liability to the consumer. Banks can't do this. Since security researchers managed to fool they bank into believing a transaction was PIN verified while not actually being the case, banks have to prove that a transaction was PIN verified, and I believe physical access to the card is required to do this. > To dumb it down: I'm envisioning a crappy future where you'll end up with fraudulent charges on your credit card (via your Apple account) that you can't contest because the credit card company will say "Hey-- your fingerprint was used to authenticate this charge. Therefore you did it." I don't think that line of thinking is too cynical. This is not going to happen unless there is an unimpeachable way to prove that the transaction was signed with a fingerprint. Since Apple have said that fingerprint data will not leave the device and is stored separately in a HSM-esque manner, I'm interested to know how this could be done.
- sp332 13y ago
  Since security researchers managed to fool the bank... banks have to prove that a transaction was PIN verified Did banks actually make that change, though? I didn't hear about that part of the story.
- EvanAnderson 13y ago
  Banks can't do it, legally, but in the U.K., at least, they've tried anyway: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-2215223/Victim-chip-pin-fraud-Its-YOUR-fault-insist-banks.html http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-2215223/Vi... I am not very optimistic U.S. about banks acting in a strictly legal manner.
wmf 13y ago
It's not always that bad. For example, Google Wallet doesn't run on Android; it actually runs on a separate secure chip. I don't know what Apple is doing but I wouldn't be surprised if it's similar.
cremnob 13y ago
This is the argument people made against Chip and PIN credit cards yet they are widely used all over the world with no problems. You don't use them, that's cool. But a lot of people do and it works great, and more importantly it's more secure than the pure magnetic stripe cards.
nodata 13y ago
> I'm thinking about how chip and PIN has been cited as a way to move fraud liability to the consumer. Not since 2009, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_and_PIN#Banks_originally_not_liable_by_default https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_and_PIN#Banks_originally_...
threeseed 13y ago
Seriously you need to ask yourself if this paranoid borderline delusional state is really worth it. If the government wanted to "get you" then they could do quite fine with all the existing technologies. If they wanted to frame a crime scene they could put your DNA everywhere. If they wanted to steal your bank accounts they could get your internet banking details. They have already been harbouring fingerprints for decades now. Nothing Apple has announced will change that one iota.
- EvanAnderson 13y ago
  My real worry is malware and fraud from private actors-- not governments. Criminals seem to be willing to go to amazing technical lengths to steal. Looking at the personal computer software ecosystem and home computers, which are often bristling with malware, and extrapolating to phones, which will certainly have a larger install-base than personal computers, doesn't seem delusional at all. That's a ripe target for criminals.
  - edwinnathaniel 13y ago
    My concern is with our physical being: determined/desperate criminals will chop of your fingers during robbery.
    - Amadou 13y ago
      Here's the problem I see - your phone is covered with your fingerprints. If someone steals your phone they've got your prints. How long will it be until a super cheap fingerprint spoof kit is available? I envision something as simple as using some rubber cement to lift a print from the phone's case, sprinkle some dust (toner?) on it to emphasize the minutiae and then wrapping it around your own finger. It will probably be more complicated than that, but all it takes is someone to discover a vulnerability in the hardware and all current phones will become insecure. The one thing you can count on is that if there is money to be had, there will be a lot of effort expended trying to find such vulnerabilities.
      - 13y ago

sjtgraham 13y ago

> I'm thinking about how chip and PIN has been cited as a way to move fraud liability to the consumer. Banks can't do this. Since security researchers managed to fool they bank into believing a transaction was PIN verified while not actually being the case, banks have to prove that a transaction was PIN verified, and I believe physical access to the card is required to do this. > To dumb it down: I'm envisioning a crappy future where you'll end up with fraudulent charges on your credit card (via your Apple account) that you can't contest because the credit card company will say "Hey-- your fingerprint was used to authenticate this charge. Therefore you did it." I don't think that line of thinking is too cynical. This is not going to happen unless there is an unimpeachable way to prove that the transaction was signed with a fingerprint. Since Apple have said that fingerprint data will not leave the device and is stored separately in a HSM-esque manner, I'm interested to know how this could be done.

sp332 13y ago
Since security researchers managed to fool the bank... banks have to prove that a transaction was PIN verified Did banks actually make that change, though? I didn't hear about that part of the story.
EvanAnderson 13y ago
Banks can't do it, legally, but in the U.K., at least, they've tried anyway: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-2215223/Victim-chip-pin-fraud-Its-YOUR-fault-insist-banks.html http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/saving/article-2215223/Vi... I am not very optimistic U.S. about banks acting in a strictly legal manner.

wmf 13y ago

It's not always that bad. For example, Google Wallet doesn't run on Android; it actually runs on a separate secure chip. I don't know what Apple is doing but I wouldn't be surprised if it's similar.

cremnob 13y ago

This is the argument people made against Chip and PIN credit cards yet they are widely used all over the world with no problems. You don't use them, that's cool. But a lot of people do and it works great, and more importantly it's more secure than the pure magnetic stripe cards.

nodata 13y ago

> I'm thinking about how chip and PIN has been cited as a way to move fraud liability to the consumer. Not since 2009, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_and_PIN#Banks_originally_not_liable_by_default https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chip_and_PIN#Banks_originally_...

threeseed 13y ago

Seriously you need to ask yourself if this paranoid borderline delusional state is really worth it. If the government wanted to "get you" then they could do quite fine with all the existing technologies. If they wanted to frame a crime scene they could put your DNA everywhere. If they wanted to steal your bank accounts they could get your internet banking details. They have already been harbouring fingerprints for decades now. Nothing Apple has announced will change that one iota.

EvanAnderson 13y ago
My real worry is malware and fraud from private actors-- not governments. Criminals seem to be willing to go to amazing technical lengths to steal. Looking at the personal computer software ecosystem and home computers, which are often bristling with malware, and extrapolating to phones, which will certainly have a larger install-base than personal computers, doesn't seem delusional at all. That's a ripe target for criminals.
- edwinnathaniel 13y ago
  My concern is with our physical being: determined/desperate criminals will chop of your fingers during robbery.
  - Amadou 13y ago
    Here's the problem I see - your phone is covered with your fingerprints. If someone steals your phone they've got your prints. How long will it be until a super cheap fingerprint spoof kit is available? I envision something as simple as using some rubber cement to lift a print from the phone's case, sprinkle some dust (toner?) on it to emphasize the minutiae and then wrapping it around your own finger. It will probably be more complicated than that, but all it takes is someone to discover a vulnerability in the hardware and all current phones will become insecure. The one thing you can count on is that if there is money to be had, there will be a lot of effort expended trying to find such vulnerabilities.
    - 13y ago