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So use a passcode - the fingerprint feature is optional. That said, I doubt they are doing anything nefarious with it - if it eventually leaked that fingerprin

So use a passcode - the fingerprint feature is optional. That said, I doubt they are doing anything nefarious with it - if it eventually leaked that fingerprints were being sent to the NSA, the cost to Apple would be incalculable. I would bet, or at least hope, that Apple has designed the hardware involved to be subpoena proof - meaning that the design would make it impossible to remotely collect fingerprints even if a court ordered them to initiate efforts to do so.

plg 13y ago
it HAS already leaked that emails, browsing, who knows what else, is being sucked up by NSA ... so apparently it doesn't matter. Apple is still selling plenty of iPhones, people are still using Gmail, etc etc. Apparently Americans don't much care.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - harrytuttle 13y ago
    Or just not buy the fucking thing to start with...
- gnaffle 13y ago
  What? Is iPhone leaking emails and browsing? Can you provide me more information on that? If you're talking about ISP monitoring, that's not specific to the iPhone, and not relevant to this discussion.
  - sillysaurus2 13y ago
    Apple was added to the PRISM program in 2010 iirc, and PRISM is a program designed for one purpose: surreptitious data collection.
    - gnaffle 13y ago
      Apple being added to PRISM would, from what I read, mean that content on Apple servers could be searched, not information stored on phones. If iPhones phoned home information on stored on phones, I'd expect there to be a huge shitstorm and ample evidence of suspicious traffic. Do we have any evidence _at all_ that this has happened?
      - Geee 13y ago
        Yes, NSA can specifically target iPhones, which I think happens by backdooring the computer which is used to sync the device. One of the NSA slides had a private photo from an iPhone of 'a former senior government official of a foreign country'. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/how-the-nsa-spies-on-smartphones-including-the-blackberry-a-921161.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/how-the-nsa-spies-...
        gnaffle 13y ago
        Which is completely different scenario than "the iPhone being backdoored". You don't have to sync your device to a computer that is online, except for the first activation.
      - plg 13y ago
        All I mean is that if you're using all of Apple's iCloud services (email, calendar, safari, not to mention iPhone backups to iCloud), your phone already "phones home" with a ton of info. We know that the info can be sucked out of Apple (or Google, or Faceboob, etc) if the NSA wants to (for now). So if they have your fingerprint data ... or even the ability to suck stuff off your phone ... then ... well qed look obviously I'm in the minority, in caring about my biometrics being "built in" at such a "ground level" to a device that has so much connectivity to "the cloud" ... if you're not disturbed by this, then fine. I'm ok, you're ok. It is ok to hold different views.
        gnaffle 13y ago
        Well, I'm in the camp that doesn't use any iCloud/Google services or Siri for security reasons, so I understand your point of view. For me, it's very relevant whether we have any evidence that the government is collecting data residing _on_ iPhones on any scale, or whether the iPhone has any such capabilities built in. As far as I know, this hasn't been reported. I know that Apple technically can push out a software update that would enable data collection or even covert audio recording, but in the end I have to make a decision on the likeliness of this vs. the convenience of having a smartphone handy. Regarding fingerprint data, the US already has that and will continue to do so for 50 years, due to the fact that I had to travel to the US for work related reasons. Not happy about that, but, well, that's life.
smtddr 13y ago
"subpoena proof"... hmm Do you believe disabling the reader in a software-setting is enough to be sure it's not working? I don't. With all these NSA concerns going about, having a hardware fingerprint-reader on your smartphone that you can't avoid touching is something to think about.
- brador 13y ago
  You could place a sticker over the reader/home button to block covert reading.
  - smtddr 13y ago
    That is a FANTASTIC idea. Get ready to see a kickstarter showing cool button-covers or replacement buttons for those not afraid to open their iPhones.
    - swamp40 13y ago
      Or a Kickstarter selling replica Bin Laden fingers. 10,000 of those would keep the NSA quite busy. (I guess you'd need a live terrorist's finger to replicate though. Those NSA types are pretty smart.)
  - VladRussian2 13y ago
    you accidentally touch it one time without cover - done. And all the stores where people come and try the devices... (personally as an immigrant i already have my fingerprints on file, so i have nothing to worry about, it is just very amusing to see how another couple of billions would be gathered as well once Android phones replicate the feature :) Welcome to the Total Information Awareness world.
    - milesskorpen 13y ago
      It takes 30-60 seconds to get a read the first time.
- ripter 13y ago
samstave 13y ago
So here is where "meta data" and direct access to app info gets really interesting. Firstly - the NSA has no need to be able to access the fingerprint. The fact that the fingerprint is your passcode barometrically ties you to the device, without a doubt, and makes the meta data all that much more accurate. What we know is that the NSA has complete upstream dominance, direct and indirect access to company data and extremely powerful correlation tools. With the features of the 5S' "always on motion sensors, tied to health apps - they basically can construct not only WHO, WHERE, HOW, WHEN, you do something, they'd be able to go as far to be able to develop a "health number" into that dossier. The fact of the matter is that while the Apple product is a nice shiny thing - and sure - as a phone and a tech, I'd love to use it -- but the data it produces about its users is 100% transparent to the NSA, based on everything we have seen so far. And more egregious; the fact that the NSA unabashedly abuses this access and does construct elaborate pictures of your behaviour then SHARES this with other agencies. The passcode and fingerprint only serve to prevent the data the NSA IS collecting from being wrongly attributed to another human body.
- cookingrobot 13y ago
  The only new scenario I can think of here is if your fingerprint happens to be the same as some bad person - either by coincidence or an error in the scan. This could get you some unwanted attention.
VladRussian2 13y ago
>the cost to Apple would be incalculable. the same statement about "not providing direct access" will get them off easily like it already did for them and Google/FB/etc in case of the rest of personal information. I'd say it would be negligent on the part of NSA to not use such a convenient source of fingerprints of "foreign" persons :) >at least hope, that Apple has designed the hardware involved to be subpoena proof why would a corporation intentionally do it? Conspiracy of obstruction of [future] justice comes to mind.
- downandout 13y ago
  Obstruction of justice can only occur if someone does something in response to a legal action that inhibits it. Fortunately it is not [yet] a crime to think ahead.
  - VladRussian2 13y ago
    >Fortunately it is not [yet] a crime to think ahead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28crime%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28crime%29 In criminal law, a conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime at some time in the future.
    - downandout 13y ago
      I'm aware. It doesn't change the fact that it's not possible to obstruct a future court order.
pdenya 13y ago
Even if I knew for a fact the NSA would get my fingerprint from my iPhone it would still be worth the convenience of having that fingerprint auth. I can legitimately stop putting in a pass code all the time and still have my phone be secure against random people using it, strangers finding it and getting access to my email, etc. I would prefer the NSA not have my prints but virtually every other piece of data they collect is more likely to be used against me.
nilved 13y ago
Do you really believe anything you just said? Apple is cooperating with the NSA in every way, but in this one case they care about user security?
enraged_camel 13y ago
>>So use a passcode - the fingerprint feature is optional. It may be optional, but that doesn't mean the device cannot acquire it without your knowledge. It is built into the home button after all.

plg 13y ago

it HAS already leaked that emails, browsing, who knows what else, is being sucked up by NSA ... so apparently it doesn't matter. Apple is still selling plenty of iPhones, people are still using Gmail, etc etc. Apparently Americans don't much care.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- harrytuttle 13y ago
  Or just not buy the fucking thing to start with...
gnaffle 13y ago
What? Is iPhone leaking emails and browsing? Can you provide me more information on that? If you're talking about ISP monitoring, that's not specific to the iPhone, and not relevant to this discussion.
- sillysaurus2 13y ago
  Apple was added to the PRISM program in 2010 iirc, and PRISM is a program designed for one purpose: surreptitious data collection.
  - gnaffle 13y ago
    Apple being added to PRISM would, from what I read, mean that content on Apple servers could be searched, not information stored on phones. If iPhones phoned home information on stored on phones, I'd expect there to be a huge shitstorm and ample evidence of suspicious traffic. Do we have any evidence _at all_ that this has happened?
    - Geee 13y ago
      Yes, NSA can specifically target iPhones, which I think happens by backdooring the computer which is used to sync the device. One of the NSA slides had a private photo from an iPhone of 'a former senior government official of a foreign country'. http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/how-the-nsa-spies-on-smartphones-including-the-blackberry-a-921161.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/how-the-nsa-spies-...
      - gnaffle 13y ago
        Which is completely different scenario than "the iPhone being backdoored". You don't have to sync your device to a computer that is online, except for the first activation.
    - plg 13y ago
      All I mean is that if you're using all of Apple's iCloud services (email, calendar, safari, not to mention iPhone backups to iCloud), your phone already "phones home" with a ton of info. We know that the info can be sucked out of Apple (or Google, or Faceboob, etc) if the NSA wants to (for now). So if they have your fingerprint data ... or even the ability to suck stuff off your phone ... then ... well qed look obviously I'm in the minority, in caring about my biometrics being "built in" at such a "ground level" to a device that has so much connectivity to "the cloud" ... if you're not disturbed by this, then fine. I'm ok, you're ok. It is ok to hold different views.
      - gnaffle 13y ago
        Well, I'm in the camp that doesn't use any iCloud/Google services or Siri for security reasons, so I understand your point of view. For me, it's very relevant whether we have any evidence that the government is collecting data residing _on_ iPhones on any scale, or whether the iPhone has any such capabilities built in. As far as I know, this hasn't been reported. I know that Apple technically can push out a software update that would enable data collection or even covert audio recording, but in the end I have to make a decision on the likeliness of this vs. the convenience of having a smartphone handy. Regarding fingerprint data, the US already has that and will continue to do so for 50 years, due to the fact that I had to travel to the US for work related reasons. Not happy about that, but, well, that's life.

smtddr 13y ago

"subpoena proof"... hmm Do you believe disabling the reader in a software-setting is enough to be sure it's not working? I don't. With all these NSA concerns going about, having a hardware fingerprint-reader on your smartphone that you can't avoid touching is something to think about.

brador 13y ago
You could place a sticker over the reader/home button to block covert reading.
- smtddr 13y ago
  That is a FANTASTIC idea. Get ready to see a kickstarter showing cool button-covers or replacement buttons for those not afraid to open their iPhones.
  - swamp40 13y ago
    Or a Kickstarter selling replica Bin Laden fingers. 10,000 of those would keep the NSA quite busy. (I guess you'd need a live terrorist's finger to replicate though. Those NSA types are pretty smart.)
- VladRussian2 13y ago
  you accidentally touch it one time without cover - done. And all the stores where people come and try the devices... (personally as an immigrant i already have my fingerprints on file, so i have nothing to worry about, it is just very amusing to see how another couple of billions would be gathered as well once Android phones replicate the feature :) Welcome to the Total Information Awareness world.
  - milesskorpen 13y ago
    It takes 30-60 seconds to get a read the first time.
ripter 13y ago

samstave 13y ago

So here is where "meta data" and direct access to app info gets really interesting. Firstly - the NSA has no need to be able to access the fingerprint. The fact that the fingerprint is your passcode barometrically ties you to the device, without a doubt, and makes the meta data all that much more accurate. What we know is that the NSA has complete upstream dominance, direct and indirect access to company data and extremely powerful correlation tools. With the features of the 5S' "always on motion sensors, tied to health apps - they basically can construct not only WHO, WHERE, HOW, WHEN, you do something, they'd be able to go as far to be able to develop a "health number" into that dossier. The fact of the matter is that while the Apple product is a nice shiny thing - and sure - as a phone and a tech, I'd love to use it -- but the data it produces about its users is 100% transparent to the NSA, based on everything we have seen so far. And more egregious; the fact that the NSA unabashedly abuses this access and does construct elaborate pictures of your behaviour then SHARES this with other agencies. The passcode and fingerprint only serve to prevent the data the NSA IS collecting from being wrongly attributed to another human body.

cookingrobot 13y ago
The only new scenario I can think of here is if your fingerprint happens to be the same as some bad person - either by coincidence or an error in the scan. This could get you some unwanted attention.

VladRussian2 13y ago

>the cost to Apple would be incalculable. the same statement about "not providing direct access" will get them off easily like it already did for them and Google/FB/etc in case of the rest of personal information. I'd say it would be negligent on the part of NSA to not use such a convenient source of fingerprints of "foreign" persons :) >at least hope, that Apple has designed the hardware involved to be subpoena proof why would a corporation intentionally do it? Conspiracy of obstruction of [future] justice comes to mind.

downandout 13y ago
Obstruction of justice can only occur if someone does something in response to a legal action that inhibits it. Fortunately it is not [yet] a crime to think ahead.
- VladRussian2 13y ago
  >Fortunately it is not [yet] a crime to think ahead. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28crime%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28crime%29 In criminal law, a conspiracy is an agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime at some time in the future.
  - downandout 13y ago
    I'm aware. It doesn't change the fact that it's not possible to obstruct a future court order.

pdenya 13y ago

Even if I knew for a fact the NSA would get my fingerprint from my iPhone it would still be worth the convenience of having that fingerprint auth. I can legitimately stop putting in a pass code all the time and still have my phone be secure against random people using it, strangers finding it and getting access to my email, etc. I would prefer the NSA not have my prints but virtually every other piece of data they collect is more likely to be used against me.

nilved 13y ago

Do you really believe anything you just said? Apple is cooperating with the NSA in every way, but in this one case they care about user security?

enraged_camel 13y ago

>>So use a passcode - the fingerprint feature is optional. It may be optional, but that doesn't mean the device cannot acquire it without your knowledge. It is built into the home button after all.