4 ms·

A useful way to compare countries is by revealed preference: where people choose to immigrate, given a chance. So far the United States fares well in that kind

A useful way to compare countries is by revealed preference: where people choose to immigrate, given a chance. So far the United States fares well in that kind of comparison, because as much as people complain about the United States--including people like me who live here--there are many people who think the overall trade-off of living in the United States is better for them than the trade-off involved in living somewhere else, even a place where they grew up and where all their friends and relatives live. Net immigration flows are pretty strongly suggestive of where people find a good life. International surveys show a strong preference (not always realized) to live in the United States.[1] I see a lot more Hacker News threads complaining that immigration to the United States is too difficult than I see about leaving the United States being difficult. (Leaving the United States is ridiculously easy, and I have done that more than once. But even many people who leave to live abroad eventually come back.) [1] "More Than 100 Million Worldwide Dream of a Life in the U.S." http://www.gallup.com/poll/161435/100-million-worldwide-dream-life.aspx http://www.gallup.com/poll/161435/100-million-worldwide-drea...

gdy 13y ago
And Russia is second in this comparison.
- tokenadult 13y ago
  Where can I find more published information about this issue? Where are the immigrants coming from?
  - rrreese 13y ago
    This was posted on Hacker News a while back, I'm sure there where interesting comments: http://peoplemov.in/ http://peoplemov.in/ Original discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5133098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5133098 The rankings for migrant destinations are: USA 42,788,029 RUSSIAN FED. 12,270,388 GERMANY 10,758,061 SAUDI ARABIA 7,288,900 CANADA 7,202,340 UNITED KINGDOM 6,955,738 SPAIN 6,900,547 FRANCE 6,684,842 AUSTRALIA 5,522,408 INDIA 5,436,012 Data is sourced from the World Bank
    - guard-of-terra 13y ago
      Keep in mind that about immigration perception in Russia: Russians don't consider most Ukrainians/Belarussians immigrants (I assume americans would not consider canadians who just happened to work in the USA immigrants as well) But peoplemov.in statistics wildly understate the number of immigrants from Central Asia who often aren't properly accounted for or just live here illegaly because of porous borders.
    - tokenadult 13y ago
      Oh, I see the source at the earlier Hacker News discussion also lists Russia as a high-ranked country for people moving out. That was my curiosity about the issue: this town is full of immigrants from Russia. From that article: Top emigration countries MEXICO 11,859,236 INDIA 11,360,823 RUSSIAN FED. 11,034,681 CHINA 8,344,726 UKRAINE 6,525,145 BANGLADESH 5,384,875 PAKISTAN 4,678,730 So, yes, I was speaking of NET immigration, for which the United States still seems easily to be the top-ranked country. The point in another reply is correct that laws about immigration limit freedom of movement to some extent, but that is also revelatory about what people desire. The United States doesn't have to do anything to keep people already here in, but its government has been called on by some domestic voters to make it hard for just anyone to come in from outside.
      - WildUtah 13y ago
        And here's just one obvious shouting indication in the data of how complex reality is. We see that the USA is the number one destination country in worldwide immigration upthread. Then we see in the parent that Mexico is the number one country for emigration. But over the past five years, in every single year, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, there have been more people moving from the USA to Mexico than the reverse. And Russia is high up on both lists; that demands some kind of explanation, too. You're going to need a lot more detailed information about what is really motivating migration before you can use numbers like that to measure the desirability of any nation for residence or citizenship.
      - gdy 13y ago
        If you take <a href="http://databanksearch.worldbank.org/DataSearch/LoadReport.aspx?db=2&cntrycode=&sercode=SM.POP.NETM&yrcode=">the http://databanksearch.worldbank.org/DataSearch/LoadReport.as... World Bank net migration data for 2010</a> Russia is still near the top while the second place is taken by UAE which seem to be just a little worse than the USA J United States 4 954 924,00 United Arab Emirates 3 076 634,00 Spain 2 250 005,00 Italy 1 998 926,00 Russian Federation 1 135 737,00
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    Central Asia, Ukraine/Belarus, Transcaucasus countries, Moldova.
leoedin 13y ago
Simply looking at net migration ignores all sorts of issues. The first is that most peoples impressions of what a country would be like to live in are quite different from the reality. The US is the figurehead of the developed world, and so of course those in less developed countries would say they dreamed of a life there. The reality is that almost none of those people actually know what their life - the life of an immigrant - would be. It's really not hard to find immigrants all over the developed world who are completely disillusioned with their life and would jump at a chance to return home. Often what keeps people in the country they emigrate to isn't some deep love of their new life, but circumstance - children, too little money to go home, too much pride to return home having admitted they've failed or familial expectations for money to be sent home. The vast majority of immigrants to the developed world live in near poverty. I often find that even British people's perception of the US and Canada is quite different to the reality that I've experienced. It's driven by the media portrayal and perhaps brief holidays. For people from very different backgrounds that gulf will be far, far greater. The second is that the level of immigration controls a country sets directly impact the net migration into the country. Regardless of how many people want to live somewhere, if they don't let you in then it doesn't really matter. It's very hard to use immigration as a metric without compensating for that somehow.

gdy 13y ago

And Russia is second in this comparison.

tokenadult 13y ago
Where can I find more published information about this issue? Where are the immigrants coming from?
- rrreese 13y ago
  This was posted on Hacker News a while back, I'm sure there where interesting comments: http://peoplemov.in/ http://peoplemov.in/ Original discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5133098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5133098 The rankings for migrant destinations are: USA 42,788,029 RUSSIAN FED. 12,270,388 GERMANY 10,758,061 SAUDI ARABIA 7,288,900 CANADA 7,202,340 UNITED KINGDOM 6,955,738 SPAIN 6,900,547 FRANCE 6,684,842 AUSTRALIA 5,522,408 INDIA 5,436,012 Data is sourced from the World Bank
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    Keep in mind that about immigration perception in Russia: Russians don't consider most Ukrainians/Belarussians immigrants (I assume americans would not consider canadians who just happened to work in the USA immigrants as well) But peoplemov.in statistics wildly understate the number of immigrants from Central Asia who often aren't properly accounted for or just live here illegaly because of porous borders.
  - tokenadult 13y ago
    Oh, I see the source at the earlier Hacker News discussion also lists Russia as a high-ranked country for people moving out. That was my curiosity about the issue: this town is full of immigrants from Russia. From that article: Top emigration countries MEXICO 11,859,236 INDIA 11,360,823 RUSSIAN FED. 11,034,681 CHINA 8,344,726 UKRAINE 6,525,145 BANGLADESH 5,384,875 PAKISTAN 4,678,730 So, yes, I was speaking of NET immigration, for which the United States still seems easily to be the top-ranked country. The point in another reply is correct that laws about immigration limit freedom of movement to some extent, but that is also revelatory about what people desire. The United States doesn't have to do anything to keep people already here in, but its government has been called on by some domestic voters to make it hard for just anyone to come in from outside.
    - WildUtah 13y ago
      And here's just one obvious shouting indication in the data of how complex reality is. We see that the USA is the number one destination country in worldwide immigration upthread. Then we see in the parent that Mexico is the number one country for emigration. But over the past five years, in every single year, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, there have been more people moving from the USA to Mexico than the reverse. And Russia is high up on both lists; that demands some kind of explanation, too. You're going to need a lot more detailed information about what is really motivating migration before you can use numbers like that to measure the desirability of any nation for residence or citizenship.
    - gdy 13y ago
      If you take <a href="http://databanksearch.worldbank.org/DataSearch/LoadReport.aspx?db=2&cntrycode=&sercode=SM.POP.NETM&yrcode=">the http://databanksearch.worldbank.org/DataSearch/LoadReport.as... World Bank net migration data for 2010</a> Russia is still near the top while the second place is taken by UAE which seem to be just a little worse than the USA J United States 4 954 924,00 United Arab Emirates 3 076 634,00 Spain 2 250 005,00 Italy 1 998 926,00 Russian Federation 1 135 737,00
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  Central Asia, Ukraine/Belarus, Transcaucasus countries, Moldova.

leoedin 13y ago

Simply looking at net migration ignores all sorts of issues. The first is that most peoples impressions of what a country would be like to live in are quite different from the reality. The US is the figurehead of the developed world, and so of course those in less developed countries would say they dreamed of a life there. The reality is that almost none of those people actually know what their life - the life of an immigrant - would be. It's really not hard to find immigrants all over the developed world who are completely disillusioned with their life and would jump at a chance to return home. Often what keeps people in the country they emigrate to isn't some deep love of their new life, but circumstance - children, too little money to go home, too much pride to return home having admitted they've failed or familial expectations for money to be sent home. The vast majority of immigrants to the developed world live in near poverty. I often find that even British people's perception of the US and Canada is quite different to the reality that I've experienced. It's driven by the media portrayal and perhaps brief holidays. For people from very different backgrounds that gulf will be far, far greater. The second is that the level of immigration controls a country sets directly impact the net migration into the country. Regardless of how many people want to live somewhere, if they don't let you in then it doesn't really matter. It's very hard to use immigration as a metric without compensating for that somehow.