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That is over generalizing though. Computer Programmer is a term widely applied to everyone ranging from higher end Systems Programmers and embedded programmers

That is over generalizing though. Computer Programmer is a term widely applied to everyone ranging from higher end Systems Programmers and embedded programmers to lower end Web Programmers. Then there is also the living costs - you couldn't make a decent living in SF for $63916 but in Detroit suburbs that might be decent wage. The reality of it is that there is a need for "program assemblers" - people that can read up the APIs/programmer guides and cook up a working app OR maintain such an app. The need for such people is significant and it isn't always in sunny SFO - often times it is at a place where not many would relocate to. That's why you need H1-Bs at the lower end of the market with lower salaries- it works because no one else who is already in the US with student debts and location preference is willing and for the guys coming from EU/India/China - it is a great start and an opportunity to try and get permanent residence to get up the chain.

jamra 13y ago
I disagree completely. There is no evidence that H1-B holders are taking up low end jobs. The fact is that there are too few programmers in the US and far more jobs. The H1-B allows companies to import a slave workforce bound to the visa. Your assumption that they are merely program assemblers is insulting to everyone who holds an H1-B. Their education backgrounds are competitive with the US. If there is any correlation with H1-B holders and large corporations, it is most likely due to the willingness to sponsor H1-B visas.
- blinkingled 13y ago
  Well that'd be defying common logic and data. High end jobs are less in numbers almost by definition. No one I know who educated from an American university with a B.S./M.S. is taking up jobs at the consulting companies that are taking up majority of the H1-B Visas. Those people are getting the high end Google/Apple/Microsoft or startup jobs. There is no insult intended in calling lower end jobs what they are - it's just a relative distinguishing mechanism. You can hardly justify arguing that everyone that maintains a run of the mill C#/Java app should get paid a $100K in Youngstown, OH. Oh and look up real slavery before using the slave word in H1-B context.
  - bubbleRefuge 13y ago
    So I work at Apple in SV. There are hoards and hoards of cube farms packed to the hilt (sometimes 3-4 people in a 8X10 cube) staffed 99% with heads from Wipro, TCS, Infosys - all Indian with zero diversity. I know pretty competent guys getting 34-40 bucks an hour with the vendor probably billing around 75-80. This is big business. With local 1BR apartments going for 2K+ and rising, how is this not slave labor? Its ridiculous. If the public could only see this. H1's should be allowed into the country as free agents and the talent should be slanted toward top coder types. Lots of these people spend their day reading log files and editing system scripts working the 10-5 schedule with an hour of lunch. We can't find American workers who can do this for say 50 bucks an hour ( split the difference)? In this economy ? Really ?
    - blinkingled 13y ago
      Believe me - the Indian companies are just another corporations wanting to make money. They couldn't care less about whether they are employing an Indian or American or a Mexican. If they could find Americans living in SV willing to work for 50$ an hour weeding through editing scripts with no future aspirations, no complaints and a girlfriend and a dog to feed - they'd do it in a heartbeat. In this economy and political situation - they just can't get enough VISAs - the rejection rate is as low as 50% and as high as 85% for some of the VISAs. Also it isn't slave labor because H1-Bs can leave and get another job of their liking or go back to their home country when they wish. This is simple demand/supply/willingness/market forces in action.
      - shiven 13y ago
        Also it isn't slave labor because H1-Bs can leave and get another job of their liking or go back to their home country when they wish. Please tell me you were born in a third-world country and that your parents wages were so low that they could barely afford to feed you and your siblings while you were growing up. And you would not mind going back because you so loved the living conditions before moving to the US that you would love your kids to grow up in a third-world country, with all its disadvantages. You, dear blinkingled, clearly have no clue what you are saying when you say what you said there.
- ojbyrne 13y ago
  I've switched jobs on my H1B 4 times now. Your use of the word "slave" is fucking offensive.
rayiner 13y ago
Yes, because there is no one in the U.S. willing to work for $65k/year.
sbov 13y ago
This doesn't seem to jive with anything about I've read H1-Bs. First, according to the post, 26% of all H1-Bs go to California and New York, which are high cost of living states. 26% is a higher percent relative to either state's population of the USA, so they are getting proportionally more H1-B visas, not less. So no, they aren't going to Detroit. Second, the story I've always read about H1-Bs is that they're for specialized positions which you cannot find people in the USA to fill. You present a different story, which is perhaps more true: that we want a workforce that we can pay less. This isn't what's being sold to the public though.
- jameshart 13y ago
  26% of ALL developers live in California and New York, or close enough. Hell, 18% of the entire US population is in California and New York. So the H1-B median shouldn't be skewed too widely from the overall market median.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- derefr 13y ago
  Let's combine those narratives: "H1-Bs are for specialized positions which you cannot find people in the USA to fill *at a price you're willing to pay."
  - ahomescu1 13y ago
    The "hot" companies of the Bay Area (like Google, Facebook, Apple and others) already pay pretty significant salaries (100k/year for an entry-level dev, fresh college graduate; it goes beyond that, I know a few developers making 150-170k/year). How much more would they have to pay, before we can admit that money isn't the issue? (Keep in mind I'm only making this case for the top companies hiring rockstar developers, which numerically look like a minority).

jamra 13y ago

I disagree completely. There is no evidence that H1-B holders are taking up low end jobs. The fact is that there are too few programmers in the US and far more jobs. The H1-B allows companies to import a slave workforce bound to the visa. Your assumption that they are merely program assemblers is insulting to everyone who holds an H1-B. Their education backgrounds are competitive with the US. If there is any correlation with H1-B holders and large corporations, it is most likely due to the willingness to sponsor H1-B visas.

blinkingled 13y ago
Well that'd be defying common logic and data. High end jobs are less in numbers almost by definition. No one I know who educated from an American university with a B.S./M.S. is taking up jobs at the consulting companies that are taking up majority of the H1-B Visas. Those people are getting the high end Google/Apple/Microsoft or startup jobs. There is no insult intended in calling lower end jobs what they are - it's just a relative distinguishing mechanism. You can hardly justify arguing that everyone that maintains a run of the mill C#/Java app should get paid a $100K in Youngstown, OH. Oh and look up real slavery before using the slave word in H1-B context.
- bubbleRefuge 13y ago
  So I work at Apple in SV. There are hoards and hoards of cube farms packed to the hilt (sometimes 3-4 people in a 8X10 cube) staffed 99% with heads from Wipro, TCS, Infosys - all Indian with zero diversity. I know pretty competent guys getting 34-40 bucks an hour with the vendor probably billing around 75-80. This is big business. With local 1BR apartments going for 2K+ and rising, how is this not slave labor? Its ridiculous. If the public could only see this. H1's should be allowed into the country as free agents and the talent should be slanted toward top coder types. Lots of these people spend their day reading log files and editing system scripts working the 10-5 schedule with an hour of lunch. We can't find American workers who can do this for say 50 bucks an hour ( split the difference)? In this economy ? Really ?
  - blinkingled 13y ago
    Believe me - the Indian companies are just another corporations wanting to make money. They couldn't care less about whether they are employing an Indian or American or a Mexican. If they could find Americans living in SV willing to work for 50$ an hour weeding through editing scripts with no future aspirations, no complaints and a girlfriend and a dog to feed - they'd do it in a heartbeat. In this economy and political situation - they just can't get enough VISAs - the rejection rate is as low as 50% and as high as 85% for some of the VISAs. Also it isn't slave labor because H1-Bs can leave and get another job of their liking or go back to their home country when they wish. This is simple demand/supply/willingness/market forces in action.
    - shiven 13y ago
      Also it isn't slave labor because H1-Bs can leave and get another job of their liking or go back to their home country when they wish. Please tell me you were born in a third-world country and that your parents wages were so low that they could barely afford to feed you and your siblings while you were growing up. And you would not mind going back because you so loved the living conditions before moving to the US that you would love your kids to grow up in a third-world country, with all its disadvantages. You, dear blinkingled, clearly have no clue what you are saying when you say what you said there.
ojbyrne 13y ago
I've switched jobs on my H1B 4 times now. Your use of the word "slave" is fucking offensive.

rayiner 13y ago

Yes, because there is no one in the U.S. willing to work for $65k/year.

sbov 13y ago

This doesn't seem to jive with anything about I've read H1-Bs. First, according to the post, 26% of all H1-Bs go to California and New York, which are high cost of living states. 26% is a higher percent relative to either state's population of the USA, so they are getting proportionally more H1-B visas, not less. So no, they aren't going to Detroit. Second, the story I've always read about H1-Bs is that they're for specialized positions which you cannot find people in the USA to fill. You present a different story, which is perhaps more true: that we want a workforce that we can pay less. This isn't what's being sold to the public though.

jameshart 13y ago
26% of ALL developers live in California and New York, or close enough. Hell, 18% of the entire US population is in California and New York. So the H1-B median shouldn't be skewed too widely from the overall market median.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
derefr 13y ago
Let's combine those narratives: "H1-Bs are for specialized positions which you cannot find people in the USA to fill *at a price you're willing to pay."
- ahomescu1 13y ago
  The "hot" companies of the Bay Area (like Google, Facebook, Apple and others) already pay pretty significant salaries (100k/year for an entry-level dev, fresh college graduate; it goes beyond that, I know a few developers making 150-170k/year). How much more would they have to pay, before we can admit that money isn't the issue? (Keep in mind I'm only making this case for the top companies hiring rockstar developers, which numerically look like a minority).