6 ms·

Isn't that what EVERY company does when it comes to marketing? I have never taken a single marketing class but I'd think putting emphasis on your strong points

Isn't that what EVERY company does when it comes to marketing? I have never taken a single marketing class but I'd think putting emphasis on your strong points and gloss over your weak ones is common sense?

seiji 13y ago
Not on Hacker News. On Hacker News your press conference should alternate new feature paragraphs with apologies. "We have a new fingerprint sensor! But, you probably don't want to use it because privacy crazies online think Apple is a front for the NSA." "We're moving to a 64-bit architecture! But, geeks with low reading comprehension think it's not that useful because we have tiny RAM, so you should just ignore this point too." "We have the best mobile phone camera ever created! But, everything was already good enough, so we've probably just wasted two years developing this and wasting shareholder dollars instead of entering the virtual cow social abuse market."
- pavlov 13y ago
  The Lumia 1020 will be hard to beat for the title of "best mobile phone camera ever created".
  - potatolicious 13y ago
    In terms of raw sensor performance, certainly. The new camera moves the software stack forward in a way that Nokia didn't though - extremely high frame rate to "catch" the best moment, programmatic selection of said moments, merging of exposure information across multiple consecutive frames, etc. As a photo enthusiast that part of the presentation was a lot more exciting than the (rather marginal) improvements to lens and sensor.
    - holaby 13y ago
      You don't need to mess around with these software hacks when the hardware is as good as in the Lumia 1020. Besides these software features are already done in the HTC One (lookup 'Zoe'). Apple's playing catchup here.
      - v13inc 13y ago
        I thought that the whole point of the 41 megapixel sensor was to give more information to those types "software hacks"!
  - topbanana 13y ago
    Not that hard apparently. http://www.tbreak.ae/features/camera-comparison-nokia-lumia-1020-vs-sony-xperia-z1 http://www.tbreak.ae/features/camera-comparison-nokia-lumia-...
    - pavlov 13y ago
      Who are "tbreak.ae"? That's not a very insightful review. Many better known sites like DPReview.com think that the Lumia 1020 has the best smartphone camera: http://connect.dpreview.com/post/5234892048/nokia-lumia-1020-camera-review http://connect.dpreview.com/post/5234892048/nokia-lumia-1020...
  - nabeards 13y ago
    Best is too vague. My issue with it is that it's a huge bulge on the back of the phone, so in my mind it can't be the "best mobile phone camera ever created".
  - x0054 13y ago
    Lumia 1020 has very slow shot-to-shot and start times. On iPhone 5 I can start the camera app and shoot 9 images in 10 seconds. Just did it. On 1020 you might get 3 shots of in the same time. But the key is the time to first shot. On iPhone 5, from off to first shot is roughly 2.5 seconds, and just .5 of a second or so for the second. 1020 takes 4-5 seconds for first shot, another 2-3 seconds for the second (based on my experiments in the store). Since most people use their cameras to shoot pictures of cute cats or children, and then upload them to FB, I think the vast majority of people would prefer the fast and very good quality of the iPhone over the slow but excellent quality of 1020.
- mcintyre1994 13y ago
  I'll bite. Explaining to a "geek with low reading comprehension", what is the actual benefit to the iPhone being 64-bit?
  - demallien 13y ago
    Memory bus bandwidth - moving large chunks of data around just got twice as fast. That means loading textures for games, or hauling photos up from flash memory will be substantially faster now.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      There's no mandatory relationship between word size and memory bus size. 128-bit memory busses were common well before 64-bit CPUs were.
    - kllrnohj 13y ago
      Memory bus bandwidth has nothing whatsoever to do with CPU word size. You'll have to wait for LPDDR4 for an increase in memory bandwidth.
  - eco 13y ago
    There are a lot of interesting things you can do with a massive address space even if you don't have the RAM to back it. You can mmap massive files. False pointers are virtually nonexistent for conservative GCs in a 64-bit environment (I believe modern Objective-C is compiler supported refcounting though so this doesn't really apply here). You can virtual alloc a 4GB array and just let it grow in physical memory on demand. There is also a new instruction set to go along with the bump to 64-bits which improves things. However, I remember Herb Sutter saying that, in the case of x64, Microsoft generally found that the improved instruction set performance gains were a wash due to the increased cache misses caused by the doubling of the pointer width. I'm not sure how much ARM 64-bit instruction set improves things.
    - mcintyre1994 13y ago
      I'm definitely out of my depth here, I guess I just wasn't really convinced 32-bit was ever a ceiling on the iPhone. I'm sure Apple have their reasons though, and maybe massive files and 4GB arrays and really do matter to iPhone users more than I thought. I'm sure Apple have some reason beyond marketing, since I doubt the general consumer really cares.
mikeash 13y ago
Yep, of course. Which is why I don't understand when people act like this is something weird. Talk up your strengths, talk down your weaknesses. If a point that was a weakness last year has become a strength this year, you emphasize it even though you de-emphasized it last year. That's just how it works.
bgruber 13y ago
the difference is that apple doesn't merely do what you're describing. in the past, they have actively lambasted others for marketing bigger numbers.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Because no other company ever criticizes their competitors' marketing? This discussion is frankly insane. This stuff is called "marketing". Virtually every company does it. Companies that don't do it are called "failures".
  - pekk 13y ago
    More than most brands, Apple uses 'meta' advertising, calls out competitors for being corporate and mainstream and focused on machines over humans ("1984", etc.) It helps them mint money selling nice-looking consumer electronics, and at the same time it makes them justly more susceptible to this kind of criticism. It's all part of the same package. I think they can weather a little criticism for the hypocrisy in their marketing, let them take their lumps as they take their money.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      Does it really do this stuff any more than other brands? Seems to me that it just gets more attention for it sometimes.

seiji 13y ago

Not on Hacker News. On Hacker News your press conference should alternate new feature paragraphs with apologies. "We have a new fingerprint sensor! But, you probably don't want to use it because privacy crazies online think Apple is a front for the NSA." "We're moving to a 64-bit architecture! But, geeks with low reading comprehension think it's not that useful because we have tiny RAM, so you should just ignore this point too." "We have the best mobile phone camera ever created! But, everything was already good enough, so we've probably just wasted two years developing this and wasting shareholder dollars instead of entering the virtual cow social abuse market."

pavlov 13y ago
The Lumia 1020 will be hard to beat for the title of "best mobile phone camera ever created".
- potatolicious 13y ago
  In terms of raw sensor performance, certainly. The new camera moves the software stack forward in a way that Nokia didn't though - extremely high frame rate to "catch" the best moment, programmatic selection of said moments, merging of exposure information across multiple consecutive frames, etc. As a photo enthusiast that part of the presentation was a lot more exciting than the (rather marginal) improvements to lens and sensor.
  - holaby 13y ago
    You don't need to mess around with these software hacks when the hardware is as good as in the Lumia 1020. Besides these software features are already done in the HTC One (lookup 'Zoe'). Apple's playing catchup here.
    - v13inc 13y ago
      I thought that the whole point of the 41 megapixel sensor was to give more information to those types "software hacks"!
- topbanana 13y ago
  Not that hard apparently. http://www.tbreak.ae/features/camera-comparison-nokia-lumia-1020-vs-sony-xperia-z1 http://www.tbreak.ae/features/camera-comparison-nokia-lumia-...
  - pavlov 13y ago
    Who are "tbreak.ae"? That's not a very insightful review. Many better known sites like DPReview.com think that the Lumia 1020 has the best smartphone camera: http://connect.dpreview.com/post/5234892048/nokia-lumia-1020-camera-review http://connect.dpreview.com/post/5234892048/nokia-lumia-1020...
- nabeards 13y ago
  Best is too vague. My issue with it is that it's a huge bulge on the back of the phone, so in my mind it can't be the "best mobile phone camera ever created".
- x0054 13y ago
  Lumia 1020 has very slow shot-to-shot and start times. On iPhone 5 I can start the camera app and shoot 9 images in 10 seconds. Just did it. On 1020 you might get 3 shots of in the same time. But the key is the time to first shot. On iPhone 5, from off to first shot is roughly 2.5 seconds, and just .5 of a second or so for the second. 1020 takes 4-5 seconds for first shot, another 2-3 seconds for the second (based on my experiments in the store). Since most people use their cameras to shoot pictures of cute cats or children, and then upload them to FB, I think the vast majority of people would prefer the fast and very good quality of the iPhone over the slow but excellent quality of 1020.
mcintyre1994 13y ago
I'll bite. Explaining to a "geek with low reading comprehension", what is the actual benefit to the iPhone being 64-bit?
- demallien 13y ago
  Memory bus bandwidth - moving large chunks of data around just got twice as fast. That means loading textures for games, or hauling photos up from flash memory will be substantially faster now.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    There's no mandatory relationship between word size and memory bus size. 128-bit memory busses were common well before 64-bit CPUs were.
  - kllrnohj 13y ago
    Memory bus bandwidth has nothing whatsoever to do with CPU word size. You'll have to wait for LPDDR4 for an increase in memory bandwidth.
- eco 13y ago
  There are a lot of interesting things you can do with a massive address space even if you don't have the RAM to back it. You can mmap massive files. False pointers are virtually nonexistent for conservative GCs in a 64-bit environment (I believe modern Objective-C is compiler supported refcounting though so this doesn't really apply here). You can virtual alloc a 4GB array and just let it grow in physical memory on demand. There is also a new instruction set to go along with the bump to 64-bits which improves things. However, I remember Herb Sutter saying that, in the case of x64, Microsoft generally found that the improved instruction set performance gains were a wash due to the increased cache misses caused by the doubling of the pointer width. I'm not sure how much ARM 64-bit instruction set improves things.
  - mcintyre1994 13y ago
    I'm definitely out of my depth here, I guess I just wasn't really convinced 32-bit was ever a ceiling on the iPhone. I'm sure Apple have their reasons though, and maybe massive files and 4GB arrays and really do matter to iPhone users more than I thought. I'm sure Apple have some reason beyond marketing, since I doubt the general consumer really cares.

mikeash 13y ago

Yep, of course. Which is why I don't understand when people act like this is something weird. Talk up your strengths, talk down your weaknesses. If a point that was a weakness last year has become a strength this year, you emphasize it even though you de-emphasized it last year. That's just how it works.

bgruber 13y ago

the difference is that apple doesn't merely do what you're describing. in the past, they have actively lambasted others for marketing bigger numbers.

mikeash 13y ago
Because no other company ever criticizes their competitors' marketing? This discussion is frankly insane. This stuff is called "marketing". Virtually every company does it. Companies that don't do it are called "failures".
- pekk 13y ago
  More than most brands, Apple uses 'meta' advertising, calls out competitors for being corporate and mainstream and focused on machines over humans ("1984", etc.) It helps them mint money selling nice-looking consumer electronics, and at the same time it makes them justly more susceptible to this kind of criticism. It's all part of the same package. I think they can weather a little criticism for the hypocrisy in their marketing, let them take their lumps as they take their money.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Does it really do this stuff any more than other brands? Seems to me that it just gets more attention for it sometimes.