4 ms·

Nobody said the original case is OK. In fact, knowing in advance someone would advance that strawman, I preemptively addressed it in the post you replied to.

by asdasf 13y ago

Nobody said the original case is OK. In fact, knowing in advance someone would advance that strawman, I preemptively addressed it in the post you replied to. I stated that it is bullying, not sexism. If you try to solve bullying by addressing sexism, you will fail.

hackinthebochs 13y ago
>I stated that it is bullying, not sexism It's not mutually exclusive. The sexism comes from the culture that even makes "make me a sandwich" a remark to use in a bullying context. Bullying comes in all forms, but gender-based bullying has another insidious component in that it re-enforces sexist ideas and cultural norms. This is why addressing it independently is important. Just addressing bullying does not eliminate the culture where these terms derive their power.
- asdasf 13y ago
  Saying "make me a sandwich" doesn't have power. The environment of "the majority are singling me out" is what has power, the words are quite literally irrelevant. Sexism would be if the boys in the class thought they were better than girls and thus a girl shouldn't be in the class. That is without a doubt not the motivation, but rather the standard "we can pick on this person so we will". There was only one girl in one of my programming classes too. She was part of the group picking on me, because the group felt I was an easier target. That really is the root of it, and attempting to address nonexistent sexism will not help solve it at all.
  - hackinthebochs 13y ago
    I can't agree with this line of reasoning. The words are not irrelevant. The words "make me a sandwich" aren't powerful because someone of the majority (in, say, a school context) said it, but because of the wider implication that that's a woman's place--making a sandwich for a man. In fact, these sorts of words can be used by people who have little power in a given context because they derive their power from the wider cultural norms. The power dynamics of whatever isolated group under consideration is what is irrelevant. The fact that they chose to bully her in that specific way indicates a sexist train of thought and that must be addressed separately from the issue of bullying. One can bully based on gender without it being sexist. This was not such a case and that fact is meaningful.
    - asdasf 13y ago
      You are welcome to your opinion, but you aren't welcome to try to force me to accept it as fact. I've seen no evidence to support your interpretation, and all my experience has shown the opposite. What wider implications make the millions of other taunts adolescents hurl at each other effective? Have you spoken to a high school girl before? Do you actually think they believe there is some "woman's place" making a sandwich for a man? The majority of them think it is just something to say, like any other random taunt. Just because you want there to be sexism there, doesn't mean there actually is.
      - hackinthebochs 13y ago
        I, too, was a child, and so I have my own counter-anecdotes. Most taunts from kids don't have wider cultural implications. Sexist insults are an exception--as are racist insults, you certainly wouldn't be so dense as to claim that a kid calling another black kid a nigger derives its power from 4th-grade-power-dynamics would you?
        asdasf 13y ago
        That depends on the context. Believe it or not, plenty of kids of all colors have no idea what nigger means or why it is offensive. A white kid calling a black kid a nigger can be racism, or it can be that the kid has no idea what it means and also calls white kids and asian kids niggers too. That's really the very crux of the issue here, sexism is a motivation, it doesn't exist purely because the word sandwich is used. Just as the word nigger does not automatically mean racism is involved, racism is a motivation that could cause someone to use the word, but that doesn't mean you can extrapolate backwards and say there is always racism behind the word.
        hackinthebochs 13y ago
        Your defense of your point is bordering on the absurd. Yes, its technically true that these things may not indicate racism/sexism is the motivation behind their usage, but the vast vast majority of their usages are derived from racist/sexist thoughts from the wider culture or in the individual themselves. This is even more true in the case of the word nigger. To offer your point as if it has any usefulness in practice is ludicrous.

by asdasf 13y ago

hackinthebochs 13y ago

>I stated that it is bullying, not sexism It's not mutually exclusive. The sexism comes from the culture that even makes "make me a sandwich" a remark to use in a bullying context. Bullying comes in all forms, but gender-based bullying has another insidious component in that it re-enforces sexist ideas and cultural norms. This is why addressing it independently is important. Just addressing bullying does not eliminate the culture where these terms derive their power.

asdasf 13y ago
Saying "make me a sandwich" doesn't have power. The environment of "the majority are singling me out" is what has power, the words are quite literally irrelevant. Sexism would be if the boys in the class thought they were better than girls and thus a girl shouldn't be in the class. That is without a doubt not the motivation, but rather the standard "we can pick on this person so we will". There was only one girl in one of my programming classes too. She was part of the group picking on me, because the group felt I was an easier target. That really is the root of it, and attempting to address nonexistent sexism will not help solve it at all.
- hackinthebochs 13y ago
  I can't agree with this line of reasoning. The words are not irrelevant. The words "make me a sandwich" aren't powerful because someone of the majority (in, say, a school context) said it, but because of the wider implication that that's a woman's place--making a sandwich for a man. In fact, these sorts of words can be used by people who have little power in a given context because they derive their power from the wider cultural norms. The power dynamics of whatever isolated group under consideration is what is irrelevant. The fact that they chose to bully her in that specific way indicates a sexist train of thought and that must be addressed separately from the issue of bullying. One can bully based on gender without it being sexist. This was not such a case and that fact is meaningful.
  - asdasf 13y ago
    You are welcome to your opinion, but you aren't welcome to try to force me to accept it as fact. I've seen no evidence to support your interpretation, and all my experience has shown the opposite. What wider implications make the millions of other taunts adolescents hurl at each other effective? Have you spoken to a high school girl before? Do you actually think they believe there is some "woman's place" making a sandwich for a man? The majority of them think it is just something to say, like any other random taunt. Just because you want there to be sexism there, doesn't mean there actually is.
    - hackinthebochs 13y ago
      I, too, was a child, and so I have my own counter-anecdotes. Most taunts from kids don't have wider cultural implications. Sexist insults are an exception--as are racist insults, you certainly wouldn't be so dense as to claim that a kid calling another black kid a nigger derives its power from 4th-grade-power-dynamics would you?
      - asdasf 13y ago
        That depends on the context. Believe it or not, plenty of kids of all colors have no idea what nigger means or why it is offensive. A white kid calling a black kid a nigger can be racism, or it can be that the kid has no idea what it means and also calls white kids and asian kids niggers too. That's really the very crux of the issue here, sexism is a motivation, it doesn't exist purely because the word sandwich is used. Just as the word nigger does not automatically mean racism is involved, racism is a motivation that could cause someone to use the word, but that doesn't mean you can extrapolate backwards and say there is always racism behind the word.
        hackinthebochs 13y ago
        Your defense of your point is bordering on the absurd. Yes, its technically true that these things may not indicate racism/sexism is the motivation behind their usage, but the vast vast majority of their usages are derived from racist/sexist thoughts from the wider culture or in the individual themselves. This is even more true in the case of the word nigger. To offer your point as if it has any usefulness in practice is ludicrous.