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But that's the thing, every time someone does something misogynistic that's even remotely connected to tech in any way we get a storm of "stop the rampant misog

by orclev 13y ago

But that's the thing, every time someone does something misogynistic that's even remotely connected to tech in any way we get a storm of "stop the rampant misogyny in tech" rants and comments, never a "stop the rampant misogyny in the USA/UK/Western World/Whatever". I don't see this as a tech problem, and blaming the tech sector for it is a cop-out. If there genuinely is a larger problem with society as a whole, that's where it needs to be addressed, picking on one subset of the larger group because you can't constructively offer any suggestions for how to fix the larger problem isn't useful. At the end of the day, this was a highschool class with comments being made by highschool kids. The one comment specifically detailed in the article is an old internet meme that was largely popular in gaming circles. The teacher, the only one in this entire story that might have some small connection with the tech industry, never made any inappropriate comments or behaved in any way misogynistic at least so far as the details in the article. To call this story an example of misogyny in the tech industry is pure BS, it had absolutely nothing to do with the tech industry in any way. Edit: More context on the comment the article mentioned: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/get-back-to-the-kitchen http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/get-back-to-the-kitchen

usingpond 13y ago
Sure, there's general misogyny and all that, but just browse the rest of this thread if you don't think that the tech industry has a disproportionate amount. HN is one of the worst offenders, as a matter of fact. I agree that it's not necessarily an example of misogyny in tech per se, but it's absolutely a contributing factor in why there are so few women in tech -- many first experiences tend to be as the sole female in classes with socially outcast males.
- orclev 13y ago
  I'm not even going to bother with your first point, particularly as it isn't really a point per say and I don't think anything constructive will come of it. Your second point on the other hand, that has some meat to it. I've said several times in the past now that the low representation of women in tech is the fault of the media and our school systems, and to a very small extent this article demonstrates that. To begin with the state of tech education in public schools is absolutely abysmal, it takes a dedicated student with a strong interest in tech to tough it out through the school system, rather than being encouraged to go into tech by the school system. The media portrays programmers and other tech industry professionals as a bunch of lonely anti-social misfits who are almost exclusively male and either so exceeding stereotypically nerdy as to practically qualify as autistic, or else overweight and lecherous. These two factors combined mean that the vast majority of students, both male and female, decide to avoid the tech industry at an early age because either they believe the media stereotypes or else they take some tech related classes and are so appalled at the curriculum that they practically run to other professions. When considering a career in the tech industry, going solely by the state of pre-college and entry level college tech courses, combined with the overwhelming media stereotypes around the tech industry, is it any surprise most women decide to pursue other fields?
wpietri 13y ago
The reason we people in tech are trying to stop discrimination in tech is that -- surprise -- we work in tech. Just because people around the world litter is no reason not for me to pick up trash on my street. Also, I believe it is specifically a tech problem. Medicine and law are approaching gender balanced. Tech, though, has been getting worse over the decades.
- orclev 13y ago
  Two things. First, it's fine to try to stop discrimination in tech in the general sense, but it shouldn't be framed as a problem specifically with tech, doing so narrows the focus to the point at which it can't actually address the general problem only very specific limited instances. Secondly, you're confusing two different issues, the gender imbalance in tech, and gender based discrimination in tech. While it's true there is a gender imbalance in tech, I do not accept that it's being caused by gender discrimination in tech. Yes, discrimination does sometimes occur, however I don't believe it's much more prevalent in tech than it is in any other industry. The gender imbalance and media stereotypes around tech have an amplifying effect, not to mention being a significant minority in any situation tends to lead to being singled out and marginalized (human nature). If you want to fix tech, then fix the media stereotypes and more importantly the poor quality of tech education in schools, the rest will work itself out as the gender imbalance is equalized. As for the more general problem on misogyny in all parts of life, I'm not sure how best to fix that, biggots of all kinds exist everywhere, I do my best to avoid them whenever possible (in the rare cases where I'm actually in charge of them I'd set them straight with what's acceptable, but that rarely happens).
  - wpietri 13y ago
    You seem to have a lot of theories on how other people should be solving the problem. What specifically are you doing to solve the problem? To me this sounds like another version of the "you're doing it wrong" anonymous grumbling that the internet provides for pretty much anybody doing anything. I'm going to keep trying to fix tech the way I think tech should be fixed. Whether or not J. Random Commenter "accepts" my analysis of the problem isn't something I'm worried about. It's a given in pushing for societal change that most people think you're wrong in one way or another; otherwise we would already have made the change.

by orclev 13y ago

usingpond 13y ago

Sure, there's general misogyny and all that, but just browse the rest of this thread if you don't think that the tech industry has a disproportionate amount. HN is one of the worst offenders, as a matter of fact. I agree that it's not necessarily an example of misogyny in tech per se, but it's absolutely a contributing factor in why there are so few women in tech -- many first experiences tend to be as the sole female in classes with socially outcast males.

orclev 13y ago
I'm not even going to bother with your first point, particularly as it isn't really a point per say and I don't think anything constructive will come of it. Your second point on the other hand, that has some meat to it. I've said several times in the past now that the low representation of women in tech is the fault of the media and our school systems, and to a very small extent this article demonstrates that. To begin with the state of tech education in public schools is absolutely abysmal, it takes a dedicated student with a strong interest in tech to tough it out through the school system, rather than being encouraged to go into tech by the school system. The media portrays programmers and other tech industry professionals as a bunch of lonely anti-social misfits who are almost exclusively male and either so exceeding stereotypically nerdy as to practically qualify as autistic, or else overweight and lecherous. These two factors combined mean that the vast majority of students, both male and female, decide to avoid the tech industry at an early age because either they believe the media stereotypes or else they take some tech related classes and are so appalled at the curriculum that they practically run to other professions. When considering a career in the tech industry, going solely by the state of pre-college and entry level college tech courses, combined with the overwhelming media stereotypes around the tech industry, is it any surprise most women decide to pursue other fields?

wpietri 13y ago

The reason we people in tech are trying to stop discrimination in tech is that -- surprise -- we work in tech. Just because people around the world litter is no reason not for me to pick up trash on my street. Also, I believe it is specifically a tech problem. Medicine and law are approaching gender balanced. Tech, though, has been getting worse over the decades.

orclev 13y ago
Two things. First, it's fine to try to stop discrimination in tech in the general sense, but it shouldn't be framed as a problem specifically with tech, doing so narrows the focus to the point at which it can't actually address the general problem only very specific limited instances. Secondly, you're confusing two different issues, the gender imbalance in tech, and gender based discrimination in tech. While it's true there is a gender imbalance in tech, I do not accept that it's being caused by gender discrimination in tech. Yes, discrimination does sometimes occur, however I don't believe it's much more prevalent in tech than it is in any other industry. The gender imbalance and media stereotypes around tech have an amplifying effect, not to mention being a significant minority in any situation tends to lead to being singled out and marginalized (human nature). If you want to fix tech, then fix the media stereotypes and more importantly the poor quality of tech education in schools, the rest will work itself out as the gender imbalance is equalized. As for the more general problem on misogyny in all parts of life, I'm not sure how best to fix that, biggots of all kinds exist everywhere, I do my best to avoid them whenever possible (in the rare cases where I'm actually in charge of them I'd set them straight with what's acceptable, but that rarely happens).
- wpietri 13y ago
  You seem to have a lot of theories on how other people should be solving the problem. What specifically are you doing to solve the problem? To me this sounds like another version of the "you're doing it wrong" anonymous grumbling that the internet provides for pretty much anybody doing anything. I'm going to keep trying to fix tech the way I think tech should be fixed. Whether or not J. Random Commenter "accepts" my analysis of the problem isn't something I'm worried about. It's a given in pushing for societal change that most people think you're wrong in one way or another; otherwise we would already have made the change.