8 ms·

Do you know what it was like for the only guy in home ec? It is not a case of sexism, it has nothing to do with programmers (likely none of the students would

by asdasf 13y ago

Do you know what it was like for the only guy in home ec? It is not a case of sexism, it has nothing to do with programmers (likely none of the students would identify with programmers at all). It is just normal bullying. The same kind that teenagers who are in a minority of some kind deal with all the time. Yes, it needs to be addressed. But pretending it is some other problem isn't going to help it be addressed.

hackinthebochs 13y ago
I really have a hard time believing that anyone can think someone who says "make me a sandwich" isn't making a sexist remark. Don't get me wrong, I agree that in some contexts it can be given and received as a joke, but it is absolutely sexist. Just because males may receive gender-based outcasting in a home-ec class does not make that also sexist (are they harassing him to go bring her home a paycheck???), nor does it make the original case OK to disregard as "kids being kids".
- asdasf 13y ago
  Nobody said the original case is OK. In fact, knowing in advance someone would advance that strawman, I preemptively addressed it in the post you replied to. I stated that it is bullying, not sexism. If you try to solve bullying by addressing sexism, you will fail.
  - hackinthebochs 13y ago
    >I stated that it is bullying, not sexism It's not mutually exclusive. The sexism comes from the culture that even makes "make me a sandwich" a remark to use in a bullying context. Bullying comes in all forms, but gender-based bullying has another insidious component in that it re-enforces sexist ideas and cultural norms. This is why addressing it independently is important. Just addressing bullying does not eliminate the culture where these terms derive their power.
    - asdasf 13y ago
      Saying "make me a sandwich" doesn't have power. The environment of "the majority are singling me out" is what has power, the words are quite literally irrelevant. Sexism would be if the boys in the class thought they were better than girls and thus a girl shouldn't be in the class. That is without a doubt not the motivation, but rather the standard "we can pick on this person so we will". There was only one girl in one of my programming classes too. She was part of the group picking on me, because the group felt I was an easier target. That really is the root of it, and attempting to address nonexistent sexism will not help solve it at all.
      - hackinthebochs 13y ago
        I can't agree with this line of reasoning. The words are not irrelevant. The words "make me a sandwich" aren't powerful because someone of the majority (in, say, a school context) said it, but because of the wider implication that that's a woman's place--making a sandwich for a man. In fact, these sorts of words can be used by people who have little power in a given context because they derive their power from the wider cultural norms. The power dynamics of whatever isolated group under consideration is what is irrelevant. The fact that they chose to bully her in that specific way indicates a sexist train of thought and that must be addressed separately from the issue of bullying. One can bully based on gender without it being sexist. This was not such a case and that fact is meaningful.
        asdasf 13y ago
        You are welcome to your opinion, but you aren't welcome to try to force me to accept it as fact. I've seen no evidence to support your interpretation, and all my experience has shown the opposite. What wider implications make the millions of other taunts adolescents hurl at each other effective? Have you spoken to a high school girl before? Do you actually think they believe there is some "woman's place" making a sandwich for a man? The majority of them think it is just something to say, like any other random taunt. Just because you want there to be sexism there, doesn't mean there actually is.
lsiebert 13y ago
First, I am glad that you agree that it needs to be addressed. If you disagree with everything else I think, we can at least agree on that. I think your argument is that this is bullying, not sexism. I don't think bullying supercedes sexism. I think bullying comes in a variety of types. I don't really care if it's sexism or bullying, except in so much as it may make it easier to stop this sort of BS. In my mind, You are teaching them to program, hence you are making them into programmers. When I learned to drive, I learned both the mechanics of the car, but also the rules and expectations. Like let people merge, and wave a thank you to people who let you merge. That said, there may be a better way to address the issue then trying to inculcate egalitarian values as part of being a good programmer. I didn't dig through journals to look at studies of bullying/sexism interventions in american secondary education. Feel free to do so.

by asdasf 13y ago

hackinthebochs 13y ago

I really have a hard time believing that anyone can think someone who says "make me a sandwich" isn't making a sexist remark. Don't get me wrong, I agree that in some contexts it can be given and received as a joke, but it is absolutely sexist. Just because males may receive gender-based outcasting in a home-ec class does not make that also sexist (are they harassing him to go bring her home a paycheck???), nor does it make the original case OK to disregard as "kids being kids".

asdasf 13y ago
Nobody said the original case is OK. In fact, knowing in advance someone would advance that strawman, I preemptively addressed it in the post you replied to. I stated that it is bullying, not sexism. If you try to solve bullying by addressing sexism, you will fail.
- hackinthebochs 13y ago
  >I stated that it is bullying, not sexism It's not mutually exclusive. The sexism comes from the culture that even makes "make me a sandwich" a remark to use in a bullying context. Bullying comes in all forms, but gender-based bullying has another insidious component in that it re-enforces sexist ideas and cultural norms. This is why addressing it independently is important. Just addressing bullying does not eliminate the culture where these terms derive their power.
  - asdasf 13y ago
    Saying "make me a sandwich" doesn't have power. The environment of "the majority are singling me out" is what has power, the words are quite literally irrelevant. Sexism would be if the boys in the class thought they were better than girls and thus a girl shouldn't be in the class. That is without a doubt not the motivation, but rather the standard "we can pick on this person so we will". There was only one girl in one of my programming classes too. She was part of the group picking on me, because the group felt I was an easier target. That really is the root of it, and attempting to address nonexistent sexism will not help solve it at all.
    - hackinthebochs 13y ago
      I can't agree with this line of reasoning. The words are not irrelevant. The words "make me a sandwich" aren't powerful because someone of the majority (in, say, a school context) said it, but because of the wider implication that that's a woman's place--making a sandwich for a man. In fact, these sorts of words can be used by people who have little power in a given context because they derive their power from the wider cultural norms. The power dynamics of whatever isolated group under consideration is what is irrelevant. The fact that they chose to bully her in that specific way indicates a sexist train of thought and that must be addressed separately from the issue of bullying. One can bully based on gender without it being sexist. This was not such a case and that fact is meaningful.
      - asdasf 13y ago
        You are welcome to your opinion, but you aren't welcome to try to force me to accept it as fact. I've seen no evidence to support your interpretation, and all my experience has shown the opposite. What wider implications make the millions of other taunts adolescents hurl at each other effective? Have you spoken to a high school girl before? Do you actually think they believe there is some "woman's place" making a sandwich for a man? The majority of them think it is just something to say, like any other random taunt. Just because you want there to be sexism there, doesn't mean there actually is.

lsiebert 13y ago

First, I am glad that you agree that it needs to be addressed. If you disagree with everything else I think, we can at least agree on that. I think your argument is that this is bullying, not sexism. I don't think bullying supercedes sexism. I think bullying comes in a variety of types. I don't really care if it's sexism or bullying, except in so much as it may make it easier to stop this sort of BS. In my mind, You are teaching them to program, hence you are making them into programmers. When I learned to drive, I learned both the mechanics of the car, but also the rules and expectations. Like let people merge, and wave a thank you to people who let you merge. That said, there may be a better way to address the issue then trying to inculcate egalitarian values as part of being a good programmer. I didn't dig through journals to look at studies of bullying/sexism interventions in american secondary education. Feel free to do so.