8 ms·

I bet she never complained about the computer industry or navy being sexist and dominated by males. Even if she did, it seems like she coped rather well.

by sspiff 13y ago

srl 13y ago
When the field was getting started, managing computers was seen as secretarial work, i.e., something women should do. http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2011/researcher-reveals-how-“computer-geeks”-replaced-“computergirls” http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2011/researcher-reveals-how-...
- sspiff 13y ago
  I'm aware of this, but I didn't realize it lasted so long. I would have expected by the 1960's that the field was firmly male-dominated.
  - sejje 13y ago
    So you realized it was still sexist, just with roles reversed? I highly doubt she complained, that doesn't mean she didn't notice the sexism.
  - laumars 13y ago
    Does it even matter? I don't get why you would bring gender into this discussion to begin with. Yes she had her genitals on the inside, but by focusing on that issue rather than the actual subject matter, you're perpetuating the notion that there's a difference between male and female operators. And by saying "I bet she never complained" you're demeaning women as much as the small minded men who feel the need to insult their peers because of their gender. So can we please stop beating the old gender topic and just get on with our jobs as equals.
dylandrop 13y ago
According to this article (http://women2.com/girls-go-geek-again-fog-creek-software-blog-new-york/ http://women2.com/girls-go-geek-again-fog-creek-software-blo...), apparently in 1987, 42% of software developers were women, and computer programming was considered a female position in the 1960's. Actually, my own grandmother was hired to use an early sort-of-computer (a comptometer, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comptometer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comptometer) during WW2. Regardless, I'm confused what your point is here. It seems like you're implying that modern women complain too much about sexism and the majority of men in the workplace. To this... I encourage you to look, well, pretty much anywhere on the web to see its veracity: http://valleywag.gawker.com/techcrunch-disrupt-kicks-off-with-titstare-app-and-fa-1274394925 http://valleywag.gawker.com/techcrunch-disrupt-kicks-off-wit... http://www.fastcolabs.com/3016238/why-your-startups-culture-is-secretly-awful http://www.fastcolabs.com/3016238/why-your-startups-culture-... I don't know about you, but as a man in CS, I'd rather attract women to come to tech rather than ostracize them or marginalize them. I don't want my workplace to become a frat.
- aestra 13y ago
  The grandparent sounds like he [I can assume that it is a he, but I don't usually use gendered pronouns with an unknown speaker] is speaking from a very privileged prospective of not experiencing sexism himself, thus not realizing it is there. Might want to check out the Male privilege checklist: http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
- bitwize 13y ago
  [A]pparently in 1987, 42% of software developers were women, and computer programming was considered a female position in the 1960's. Yes, and those female programmers in the 1960s were referred to in ads that said things like "What has sixteen legs, eight waggly tongues, and costs you at least $40,000 a year?" In those days programming was considered a menial and lightweight clerical task -- perfect for "women's work". Once we realized that programming was actually hard, the boys took over.
  - jmduke 13y ago
    After all, women can't do mentally challenging work! Ha ha! sigh
    - bitwize 13y ago
      That's not what I meant. I meant that as soon as the men realized it was challenging work, they decided it was men's work and worked to keep women out of it.
- aardvark 13y ago
  I went to college in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and I can testify that about 30-40% of the CS students were female. And even then some people were expressing concern about how male-dominated the field was becoming.
- sspiff 13y ago
  I wasn't aware that the gender balance was tipped towards the female side for so long. Thanks for the information. I agree with your final point, but to be honest in my personal experience, I've only encountered one case of sexism in my career, and the man in question was frowned upon pretty universally for his remarks. All in all, I've seen women treated with the same amount of respect respect (and generally more kindness and less petty rivalry) then their male counterparts. A lot of the stories I read about sexism in the tech industry seem to complain about problems that aren't really there (most recently, a parent complaining that teachers should enforce positive discrimination for females in computer science classes to attract a more balanced gender palette). I agree that it would be nice to attract more female coworkers to the programming craft, much like it would probably be nice to attract more male nurses into healthcare. But I'm rather annoyed at the "big deal" people seem to be making of this (as far as I've experienced) mostly imaginary gender discrimination problem in our field. It could be that this problem is geologically clustered (I don't live in the US), and the problem is really much bigger in other parts of the world, but from where I'm standing, women don't have it worse than men in my profession.
aestra 13y ago
Grace Hopper joined the Navy in the WAVES program during World War II. WAVES stands for Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service. According to Wikipedia[1] WAVES on 30 July 1942 was established as a World War II division of the U.S. Navy, that consisted entirely of women in the 1940s, but on 12 June 1948, women gained permanent status in the armed services of the United States. The name was the acronym for "Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service"[1] (as well as an allusion to ocean waves). The word "emergency" implied that the acceptance of women was due to the unusual circumstances of World War II, and at the end of the war the women would not be allowed to continue in Navy careers, but it or its successors continued for decades afterwards. Within their first year, the WAVES were 27,000 strong. A large proportion of the WAVES did clerical work, but some took positions in the aviation community, medical professions, communications, intelligence, storekeeper, science and technology. The WAVES could not serve aboard combat ships or aircraft, and initially were restricted to duty in the continental United States. Late in World War II, they were authorized to serve in certain U.S. possessions, and a number were sent to Hawaii. The war ended before any WAVES could be sent to other locations. It wasn't until six years after WAVES was formed on June 12 1948, women gained permanent status in the armed services. Grace Hopper absolutely wouldn't have been welcome in the Navy if it wasn't for World War II. After WWII they let woman continue in the armed services since they were already there, and they were providing some vital roles, and HEY THE WORLD DIDN'T END AFTER ALL. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAVES http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAVES
PhasmaFelis 13y ago
Transparent, unimaginative troll. 3/10.
mratzloff 13y ago
> I bet she never complained about the computer industry or navy being sexist and dominated by males. Even if she did, it seems like she coped rather well. However, I'm having trouble coping with the endless stream of idiotic sexist bullshit I hear from certain HN posters.
mpyne 13y ago
I'm in the Navy. While it's not nearly as bad as it used to be, the Navy is the military branch that made Tailhook famous, and the recent Article 32 hearing held at the Washington Navy Yard for the Academy sexual assault case shows that there is still a long way to go before we can say that sexism isn't a problem in the Navy.
mikeash 13y ago
The rallying cry of male chauvinist pigs everywhere. "A few women have managed to succeed despite the massive number of artificial obstacles we put in their path, so the rest of you should just quit whining."

I bet she never complained about the computer industry or navy being sexist and dominated by males. Even if she did, it seems like she coped rather well.

by sspiff 13y ago

I bet she never complained about the computer industry or navy being sexist and dominated by males. Even if she did, it seems like she coped rather well.

srl 13y ago

When the field was getting started, managing computers was seen as secretarial work, i.e., something women should do. http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2011/researcher-reveals-how-“computer-geeks”-replaced-“computergirls” http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2011/researcher-reveals-how-...

sspiff 13y ago
I'm aware of this, but I didn't realize it lasted so long. I would have expected by the 1960's that the field was firmly male-dominated.
- sejje 13y ago
  So you realized it was still sexist, just with roles reversed? I highly doubt she complained, that doesn't mean she didn't notice the sexism.
- laumars 13y ago
  Does it even matter? I don't get why you would bring gender into this discussion to begin with. Yes she had her genitals on the inside, but by focusing on that issue rather than the actual subject matter, you're perpetuating the notion that there's a difference between male and female operators. And by saying "I bet she never complained" you're demeaning women as much as the small minded men who feel the need to insult their peers because of their gender. So can we please stop beating the old gender topic and just get on with our jobs as equals.

dylandrop 13y ago

According to this article (http://women2.com/girls-go-geek-again-fog-creek-software-blog-new-york/ http://women2.com/girls-go-geek-again-fog-creek-software-blo...), apparently in 1987, 42% of software developers were women, and computer programming was considered a female position in the 1960's. Actually, my own grandmother was hired to use an early sort-of-computer (a comptometer, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comptometer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comptometer) during WW2. Regardless, I'm confused what your point is here. It seems like you're implying that modern women complain too much about sexism and the majority of men in the workplace. To this... I encourage you to look, well, pretty much anywhere on the web to see its veracity: http://valleywag.gawker.com/techcrunch-disrupt-kicks-off-with-titstare-app-and-fa-1274394925 http://valleywag.gawker.com/techcrunch-disrupt-kicks-off-wit... http://www.fastcolabs.com/3016238/why-your-startups-culture-is-secretly-awful http://www.fastcolabs.com/3016238/why-your-startups-culture-... I don't know about you, but as a man in CS, I'd rather attract women to come to tech rather than ostracize them or marginalize them. I don't want my workplace to become a frat.

aestra 13y ago
The grandparent sounds like he [I can assume that it is a he, but I don't usually use gendered pronouns with an unknown speaker] is speaking from a very privileged prospective of not experiencing sexism himself, thus not realizing it is there. Might want to check out the Male privilege checklist: http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/ http://amptoons.com/blog/the-male-privilege-checklist/
bitwize 13y ago
[A]pparently in 1987, 42% of software developers were women, and computer programming was considered a female position in the 1960's. Yes, and those female programmers in the 1960s were referred to in ads that said things like "What has sixteen legs, eight waggly tongues, and costs you at least $40,000 a year?" In those days programming was considered a menial and lightweight clerical task -- perfect for "women's work". Once we realized that programming was actually hard, the boys took over.
- jmduke 13y ago
  After all, women can't do mentally challenging work! Ha ha! sigh
  - bitwize 13y ago
    That's not what I meant. I meant that as soon as the men realized it was challenging work, they decided it was men's work and worked to keep women out of it.
aardvark 13y ago
I went to college in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and I can testify that about 30-40% of the CS students were female. And even then some people were expressing concern about how male-dominated the field was becoming.
sspiff 13y ago
I wasn't aware that the gender balance was tipped towards the female side for so long. Thanks for the information. I agree with your final point, but to be honest in my personal experience, I've only encountered one case of sexism in my career, and the man in question was frowned upon pretty universally for his remarks. All in all, I've seen women treated with the same amount of respect respect (and generally more kindness and less petty rivalry) then their male counterparts. A lot of the stories I read about sexism in the tech industry seem to complain about problems that aren't really there (most recently, a parent complaining that teachers should enforce positive discrimination for females in computer science classes to attract a more balanced gender palette). I agree that it would be nice to attract more female coworkers to the programming craft, much like it would probably be nice to attract more male nurses into healthcare. But I'm rather annoyed at the "big deal" people seem to be making of this (as far as I've experienced) mostly imaginary gender discrimination problem in our field. It could be that this problem is geologically clustered (I don't live in the US), and the problem is really much bigger in other parts of the world, but from where I'm standing, women don't have it worse than men in my profession.

aestra 13y ago

Grace Hopper joined the Navy in the WAVES program during World War II. WAVES stands for Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service. According to Wikipedia[1] WAVES on 30 July 1942 was established as a World War II division of the U.S. Navy, that consisted entirely of women in the 1940s, but on 12 June 1948, women gained permanent status in the armed services of the United States. The name was the acronym for "Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service"[1] (as well as an allusion to ocean waves). The word "emergency" implied that the acceptance of women was due to the unusual circumstances of World War II, and at the end of the war the women would not be allowed to continue in Navy careers, but it or its successors continued for decades afterwards. Within their first year, the WAVES were 27,000 strong. A large proportion of the WAVES did clerical work, but some took positions in the aviation community, medical professions, communications, intelligence, storekeeper, science and technology. The WAVES could not serve aboard combat ships or aircraft, and initially were restricted to duty in the continental United States. Late in World War II, they were authorized to serve in certain U.S. possessions, and a number were sent to Hawaii. The war ended before any WAVES could be sent to other locations. It wasn't until six years after WAVES was formed on June 12 1948, women gained permanent status in the armed services. Grace Hopper absolutely wouldn't have been welcome in the Navy if it wasn't for World War II. After WWII they let woman continue in the armed services since they were already there, and they were providing some vital roles, and HEY THE WORLD DIDN'T END AFTER ALL. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAVES http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAVES

PhasmaFelis 13y ago

Transparent, unimaginative troll. 3/10.

mratzloff 13y ago

> I bet she never complained about the computer industry or navy being sexist and dominated by males. Even if she did, it seems like she coped rather well. However, I'm having trouble coping with the endless stream of idiotic sexist bullshit I hear from certain HN posters.

mpyne 13y ago

I'm in the Navy. While it's not nearly as bad as it used to be, the Navy is the military branch that made Tailhook famous, and the recent Article 32 hearing held at the Washington Navy Yard for the Academy sexual assault case shows that there is still a long way to go before we can say that sexism isn't a problem in the Navy.

mikeash 13y ago

The rallying cry of male chauvinist pigs everywhere. "A few women have managed to succeed despite the massive number of artificial obstacles we put in their path, so the rest of you should just quit whining."